Objectivity in dealer demos

[CapMan]

As objectivists should we be taking a PC loaded with REW and a UMIK1 to dealer demo rooms in addition to collections of favoured CDs?

Would it help make better decisions or just be a hell of a lot of fun?!

 

[staticV3]

Room acoustics will make collecting useful data very difficult, plus I imagine playing sweeps and pink noise would bother both the dealer and other customers.

One way to bring some semblance of objectivity into the demo room might be to ask the dealer to listen to a speaker in Mono, as it's easier to hear faults that way (Source)

 

[NTK]

With REW, you can play pink noise (if you aren't allowed to connect your laptop to their system, remember to bring a CD with pink noise with you) and use the moving mic method to measure and assess the in-room frequency response at the listening position(s) of the dealer demo room.

 

[restorer-john]

As objectivists should we be taking a PC loaded with REW and a UMIK1 to dealer demo rooms in addition to collections of favoured CDs?

Would it help make better decisions or just be a hell of a lot of fun?!

No dealer with half a brain is going to allow some random with a laptop and a measurement mic anywhere near their gear. One false move with a test tone and you could easily cook a pair of $10,000 tweeters, and, at the same time drive every other normal customer who wants a HiFi music system, out of the shop.

Do you go to the Lamborghini dealership towing a mobile dyno? Nope.

Dealers, as the name suggests, are there to do deals and make sales, not entertain fringe audiophile nutcases who think they are performing some kind of service for the benefit of mankind.

 

[CapMan]

Dealers, as the name suggests, are there to do deals and make sales, not entertain fringe audiophile nutcases who think they are performing some kind of service for the benefit of mankind.

I think you just coined a new acronym - FANs - Fringe Audiophile Nutcases

i was on the coast over the past week and struck by how much the wave sounds
were pink noise - perhaps we take a new age ‘relaxation’ CD along instead lol

Spin the post a different way… what is the most objective thing we could do at a dealer demo to provide input into a buying decision?

I always asked the dealer to leave the room so I didn’t have to experience them jiggling up and down to show me how rhythmic the system was !

 

[MaxwellsEq]

The best thing to take to a dealer demonstration (for any product), is well-honed Critical Thinking skills.

Shops are there to make a profit and personally I'm all for that. I've never sold domestic audio products, but I don't have the negative image of salespeople that seems to occur on audio forums. However, it is worth wondering why the dealer may be motivated to say something that's in their interest as much as it is in yours.

 

[Purité Audio]

I always show the in-room measurements of all the loudspeakers here, if the customer asks, I don’t agree that dealers make ‘deals’ retailers ‘should’ give honest accurate advice and recommend the very best sound quality for the customers budget.
Today that means relatively inexpensive state of the art electronics/source and loudspeakers which can be adjusted to sound exceptional in any room.
Demonstrations should be conducted in the customers own space.
Keith

 

[FrantzM]

As objectivists should we be taking a PC loaded with REW and a UMIK1 to dealer demo rooms in addition to collections of favoured CDs?

Would it help make better decisions or just be a hell of a lot of fun?!

No.
Assessing/Correcting room acoustics, is not a quick and done thing, it is the analysis of a complex space and environment. It would be invasive, for results that results would/can not be definitive...
I would rather suggest that one find a dealer that offers money back guarantee.. Have the equipment in your own environment/room and take it/decide from there.

Peace

 

[r042wal]

With REW, you can play pink noise (if you aren't allowed to connect your laptop to their system, remember to bring a CD with pink noise with you) and use the moving mic method to measure and assess the in-room frequency response at the listening position(s) of the dealer demo room.

How does pink noise help evaluate a speaker? This is not a loaded question. I have never heard of this before. I am about to recap some speakers, have REW and a good reference mic. Bring me into the fold and educate me! Thanks in advance.

 

[staticV3]

How does pink noise help evaluate a speaker? This is not a loaded question. I have never heard of this before. I am about to recap some speakers, have REW and a good reference mic. Bring me into the fold and educate me! Thanks in advance.

You can use pink noise to measure the in-room frequency response using the Moving Microphone Method, or with some practice, you can just listen to pink noise and evaluate the sound that way.

 

[bodhi]

After the measurements are published and dissected in audio forums it will be forever known that such and such store has a terrible listening room with huge peaks and nulls.

The measurements may or may not have been known correctly, but the information will forever be bad publicity.

Most relevant speakers have well made measurements available so it seems complete waste of time measuring them yourself in some random listening room.

 

[CapMan]

So the consensus is that REW measuring is a no-no / silly idea. So when we listen at our dealer we only know (from the science) that a good part of the sound is the room and how it interacts with the speaker in a space that is nothing like our own.

We also know that most of the electronics should be transparent and the room and speakers dominate the sound - so is there much value in demoing an amp /DAC/ streamer at the dealer ?

Are there any objective things we can do at dealer demos to inform a buying decisions or the creation of a short list of products to take home ?

Before people jump on me - I think having a relationship with a dealer who can supply equipment, provide service and after care etc is important.

 

[Purité Audio]

Dacs are ‘done’ just choose from Amir’s list, contemporary solid state amplifiers are transparent as long as not driven into clipping( and have been for many years) streamers ‘should’ be bit perfect into the same dac, ultimately it as all loudspeakers and then adjusting their bass response to the room.
A good full range pair of loudspeakers with transparent electronics is as good as it gets unless you are prepared to build a dedicated properly treated room ie three metres of rockwool behind every surface.
Keith

 

[CapMan]

You can use pink noise to measure the in-room frequency response using the Moving Microphone Method, or with some practice, you can just listen to pink noise and evaluate the sound that way.

This is what I did to measure and EQ in my room.

 

[CapMan]

Dacs are ‘done’ just choose from Amir’s list, contemporary solid state amplifiers are transparent as long as not driven into clipping( and have been for many years) streamers ‘should’ be bit perfect into the same dac, ultimately it as all loudspeakers and then adjusting their bass response to the room.
A good full range pair of loudspeakers with transparent electronics is as good as it gets unless you are prepared to build a dedicated properly treated room ie three metres of rockwool behind every surface.
Keith

Appreciate the candid answer . Thanks

 

[Galliardist]

I think you just coined a new acronym - FANs - Fringe Audiophile Nutcases

i was on the coast over the past week and struck by how much the wave sounds
were pink noise - perhaps we take a new age ‘relaxation’ CD along instead lol

Spin the post a different way… what is the most objective thing we could do at a dealer demo to provide input into a buying decision?

I always asked the dealer to leave the room so I didn’t have to experience them jiggling up and down to show me how rhythmic the system was !

The most objective thing you can do at a dealer demo is form a reasonable judgement of the dealer. Ask about things like warranty, how they decide what product to stock and recommend, how repairs work, if there is a return period. The other thing to remember is that you should really check out the ergonomics of any product because that will be more important in the long term than the sound you hear in the shop.

If you are demoing speakers, good luck. My experience is that about one in ten dealers actually know the first thing about setting up a system properly, and there is an inverse relationship between the price of what they stock and the reliability of that setup. The most expensive system I've ever heard sounded the worst for a good reason....

 

[NTK]

How does pink noise help evaluate a speaker? This is not a loaded question. I have never heard of this before. I am about to recap some speakers, have REW and a good reference mic. Bring me into the fold and educate me! Thanks in advance.

My intent was not really to "evaluate" the speakers, as a proper evaluation of speakers would require quasi-anechoic measurements.

It was more to get an idea of how well or poorly the combination of the speakers and the demo room work together. For example, if you hear flabby bass, having an in-room frequency response may give you some clues as to whether it is due to room modes or the speakers. Since the purpose is to evaluate speakers at the dealer, you want to know if the speakers are operating in a favorable acoustic environment or not.

Also, pink noise is a very good diagnostic signal. Play a mono pink noise and listen for the phantom center image will tell you if the system is hooked up correctly and well balanced.