Nightmare room setup request for advice (audio only)

[jeffme]

Hi all -

I'm looking for some advice on what appears to be an impossible situation - how to create a pretty good audio experience in a horrible room setup / layout.

Diagram is below, but here's some background:
- We're only worried about Audio... no AV requirements
- There's a big room with high ceilings connected to another two rooms / areas with a lot of open (i.e. no doors) paths between the areas
- Not only are these rooms rectangular, there's a lot of glass, so very very few options for wall-mount speakers
- Floor-standers are not an option, as the "design consultant" who calls the shots says "no way"
- Room treatments will be limited to some sheer blinds that are likely up most of the time
- Types of music preferred - lots of Americana, country, hard bop Jazz, early music, & world music make up the bulk of our listening, so fairly diverse

Here's what I'm thinking:
- Main listening area: Some array of in-ceiling speakers (4 (2x2) or 6 (2 x 3) complemented by 1 or 2 subwoofers; fed by: streamer (Wiim?)-> room correction DSP of some sort (Dirac / miniDSP?) -> DAC (Okto) -> Buckeye amp
- Dining room: 2 or 4 in-ceiling speakers
- Kitchen: 2 or 4 in-ceiling speakers

Here are my questions (please add obvious questions I may have missed...):
- Is the ceiling array a reasonable approach to solving this or should I do something differently?
- Is the DSP/DAC/Amp approach reasonable to handle / help with room correction or should I just get an AVR with enough channels & room correction?
- If the inline DSP approach is reasonable, any thoughts on how to adjust profiles if the Kitchen or Dining areas are also playing (e.g. during a party, etc.)?
- Does running 4 instead of 2 speakers in a small space like the dining room or kitchen make an appreciable difference in audio experience?

And, yes, I'm working with a local integrator, but I'd like to get the opinions of neutral 3rd parties.

Thanks in advance & please correct me if I've made any bad assumptions...

 

[Kal Rubinson]

- Is the ceiling array a reasonable approach to solving this or should I do something differently?

There is probably no way to achieve good quality music audio with only ceiling speakers. The best you can hope for is a decent spread of sound appropriate for background listening. If floor-standing speakers are out of consideration, your best option is in-wall speakers, especially for the main listening area.

- Is the DSP/DAC/Amp approach reasonable to handle / help with room correction or should I just get an AVR with enough channels & room correction?

It is more than reasonable. It is more like overkill if you still with only ceiling speakers.

- If the inline DSP approach is reasonable, any thoughts on how to adjust profiles if the Kitchen or Dining areas are also playing (e.g. during a party, etc.)?

Pointless.

- Does running 4 instead of 2 speakers in a small space like the dining room or kitchen make an appreciable difference in audio experience?

More uniform distribution.

 

[ErVikingo]

Your problem is not the room shape or ceiling height, it is your "design consultant"s limitation of floor standing speakers.

I have "high end" ceiling speakers with good amps and sources at home and they are great for music but not for serious listening.

Can you convince the consultant to at least let you have some in-wall speakers? Maybe some bookshelf? It would be better

As a point of reference, in my bedroom the soundbar for the TV sounds better than my $$$ ceiling speakers. The speakers have better FR but shooting from above doesn't work for what I think you want.

 

[JustJones]

Wireless headphones

 

[Syntactic]

In wall speakers covered by acoustically transparent art/photo prints held in picture frames.

 

[Zek]

In wall speakers

In the primary listening area, there are almost no walls in which to install speakers.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'm going to concur that in-ceiling speakers are mostly only good for background music - pretty good for parties but not good for anything else IMO.

I think you don't need to worry much about DSP profiles for parties, but you might want to tweak the bass for crowds (more or less depending on the crowd) and you could also set up some dynamic compression so the music stays at a steadier volume level.

Since the design consultant's allowed some subs, try and lobby for some decent monitor/bookshelf units, your living room listening experience will be much better if you can sell that, than trying to live with ceiling-mounted stuff. Heck, like @ErVikingo said, even a nice soundbar is preferable to in-ceiling. The new SONOS offerings are also a fairly respectable route to decent sound that might not conflict with design imperatives so much?

 

[boxerfan88]

Swop Dining with PLA?

There is a nice wall at the existing dining area that can be used…

 

[sarumbear]

Hi all -

I'm looking for some advice on what appears to be an impossible situation - how to create a pretty good audio experience in a horrible room setup / layout.

Diagram is below, but here's some background:
- We're only worried about Audio... no AV requirements
- There's a big room with high ceilings connected to another two rooms / areas with a lot of open (i.e. no doors) paths between the areas
- Not only are these rooms rectangular, there's a lot of glass, so very very few options for wall-mount speakers
- Floor-standers are not an option, as the "design consultant" who calls the shots says "no way"
- Room treatments will be limited to some sheer blinds that are likely up most of the time
- Types of music preferred - lots of Americana, country, hard bop Jazz, early music, & world music make up the bulk of our listening, so fairly diverse

Here's what I'm thinking:
- Main listening area: Some array of in-ceiling speakers (4 (2x2) or 6 (2 x 3) complemented by 1 or 2 subwoofers; fed by: streamer (Wiim?)-> room correction DSP of some sort (Dirac / miniDSP?) -> DAC (Okto) -> Buckeye amp
- Dining room: 2 or 4 in-ceiling speakers
- Kitchen: 2 or 4 in-ceiling speakers

Here are my questions (please add obvious questions I may have missed...):
- Is the ceiling array a reasonable approach to solving this or should I do something differently?
- Is the DSP/DAC/Amp approach reasonable to handle / help with room correction or should I just get an AVR with enough channels & room correction?
- If the inline DSP approach is reasonable, any thoughts on how to adjust profiles if the Kitchen or Dining areas are also playing (e.g. during a party, etc.)?
- Does running 4 instead of 2 speakers in a small space like the dining room or kitchen make an appreciable difference in audio experience?

And, yes, I'm working with a local integrator, but I'd like to get the opinions of neutral 3rd parties.

Thanks in advance & please correct me if I've made any bad assumptions...

View attachment 278881View attachment 278881

Buy a decent smart speaker. Some of them are pretty good.

 

[Keith_W]

If you have speakers in the open like that, how are you going to run the cables? Do you have a rug to run the cables under? I am surprised she is willing to let you put speakers in the open, surely you might walk into them when it's dark, or when you are drunk, or have parties, and so on. I think that speakers should be away from foot traffic if only for safety reasons.

BTW it sounds like a nice house with high ceilings and glass ... you could work with it but only if you had freedom to place the speakers. I would consider flipping the sofa / speakers so that the speakers are against the wall (or glass area?) and the sofa is out in the middle. It would visually divide that space and make it seem smaller, but it would be better for your speakers both in terms of sound and safety.

 

[Mr. Widget]

How about adding another complimentary credenza or low cabinet with a pair of compact speakers concealed within. You could augment this with a pair of in-wall subwoofers and have a very respectable system... especially if you could beef up the window coverings, even if only during listening sessions.

 

[jeffme]

...Wisdom...

@Kal Rubinson - many thanks for your to the point & sage advice - it's helped with my decision-making confidence. #ASRisAwesome

 

[jeffme]

...great for music ....

... in-wall speakers.. bookshelf... soundbar ...

@ErVikingo - many thanks, as well - "great for music" may be all we can hope for & that wouldn't be the worst thing.

I'm going to revisit the options above & hadn't even thought of soundbars, but that's brilliant. Will discuss that specifically with the integrator today. We don't have much wall space, but I'm hoping the option for a vertical pair or single horizontal soundbar (both +sub) might be very helpful.

The wife (aka Design Consultant) has a pair of floorstanding Thiels from back in the day, so if she relents, we'll probably end up with those, although I'd prefer something a little more modern / slimmer...

 

[jeffme]

I'm going to concur that in-ceiling speakers are mostly only good for background music - pretty good for parties but not good for anything else IMO.

I think you don't need to worry much about DSP profiles for parties, but you might want to tweak the bass for crowds (more or less depending on the crowd) and you could also set up some dynamic compression so the music stays at a steadier volume level.

Since the design consultant's allowed some subs, try and lobby for some decent monitor/bookshelf units, your living room listening experience will be much better if you can sell that, than trying to live with ceiling-mounted stuff. Heck, like @ErVikingo said, even a nice soundbar is preferable to in-ceiling. The new SONOS offerings are also a fairly respectable route to decent sound that might not conflict with design imperatives so much?

@kemmler3D - good advice on the situation-dependent EQ there.

As for the design consultant's design imperatives... I can assure you that the constraints are... constraining.

 

[jeffme]

If you have speakers in the open like that, how are you going to run the cables? Do you have a rug to run the cables under? I am surprised she is willing to let you put speakers in the open, surely you might walk into them when it's dark, or when you are drunk, or have parties, and so on. I think that speakers should be away from foot traffic if only for safety reasons.

@Keith_W - good advice on safety - we're pretty klutzy, even when not drunk. Good thing is that the house is down to the studs right now, so we could hide wires in walls if we had good confidence on where floor standers might end up.

BTW it sounds like a nice house with high ceilings and glass ... you could work with it but only if you had freedom to place the speakers. I would consider flipping the sofa / speakers so that the speakers are against the wall (or glass area?) and the sofa is out in the middle. It would visually divide that space and make it seem smaller, but it would be better for your speakers both in terms of sound and safety.

Thank you - it is nice & we're fortunate to have some great views, too. Flipping the sofa is brilliant for the purposes of views, but it also creates a bit of a traffic blocker (the room is big (for us), but not quite big enough for a setup like that. We'll take another run at that, but I'll be surprised if we don't end up keeping it the way it is.

 

[jeffme]

How about adding another complimentary credenza or low cabinet with a pair of compact speakers concealed within. You could augment this with a pair of in-wall subwoofers and have a very respectable system... especially if you could beef up the window coverings, even if only during listening sessions.

@Mr. Widget - WOW! THIS IS GENIUS. Seriously. Thank you not only for the idea, but taking the effort to edit my diagram. It's not unnoticed. Again, #ASRrocks.

Per the comment about to @Keith_W about the back of the sofa blocking the flow of the room a little bit, I'm not sure I'll be able to persuade the wife, but you've cut the Gordian Knot, for sure. Much better sound, discrete speaker positioning. Looked at this first last night & I'm still sorting it out in my mind, as I'd love to figure out a way to make this or something close to this idea happen.

 

[FrankW]

How tall is the credenza? If not too tall, perhaps some on wall Magnepans above said credenza, then on opposite wall between kitchen/dining entries? They fold flat onto wall when not in use (so somewhat wife friendly and being dipolar, should direct somewhat of a null at wall. Caveat, I think I heard some a century ago, can't recall how they sounded. ;-).

 

[NTK]

How about adding another complimentary credenza or low cabinet with a pair of compact speakers concealed within. You could augment this with a pair of in-wall subwoofers and have a very respectable system... especially if you could beef up the window coverings, even if only during listening sessions.

View attachment 278940

This

 

[Mr. Widget]

This

Three problems with this...
1. It is very tall, much taller in person than the photos make it appear.
2. The back is ugly.
3. Sonically it offers a sound that requires an acquired taste.

But, yeah, that was sort of my idea.

 

[Mr. Widget]

WOW! THIS IS GENIUS. Seriously. Thank you not only for the idea, but taking the effort to edit my diagram.

Not sure its genius, and it wasn't that big of a deal. It is what I do for my day job.