Living Room system design - seeking input

[bogart]

Team ASR: I'm working on an exciting renovation project for our living and dining room space and am seeking input on entertainment system design.

Overall room layout is shown first. It's a blended living and dining space with built-in cabinetry facing the couch and is partially open to a corridor in the dining area. I'm thinking about how to create a pleasant listening environment here for both casual background music listening (i.e. reading on the couch, music during dinner), as well as dedicated tv/movie watching.

Coverage Options

1. Speakers only in the cabinets, facing the seating area (nothing in dining space)
2. Speakers in the cabinets (living) + KEF Ci200QR ceiling speakers above dining area
3. Ceiling speakers just forward of cabinets (living) + KEF Ci200QR ceiling speakers above dining area

Detailed Wall Layout
Assuming dedicated speakers facing outward toward the couch, I'm debating speaker placement. The millwork designs below include sliding doors that are meant to keep the TV out of sight whenever desired. Seating position is approximately 10' from the wall, so targeting an equilateral triangle push the speakers wider than the 6ft. opening currently spec'd for the TV. The design also puts the turntable and some record storage on either side of the TV (not sure I'm sold on these being on permanent display, but it's kinda fun).

Few options I'm thinking of and would love feedback on:

• Bookshelf or active speakers placed on the bookshelves, use acoustically transparent fabric for the sliding doors
• KEF In-wall speakers on either side of the TV within that enclosure
• KEF In-wall speakers above the TV
• KEF In-wall speakers mounted in the back of shelves and kept clear of stuff (I have doubts about the clearance happening!), use acoustically transparent fabric
• Ceiling mounted speakers above the bookshelves (don't love this!)
• Please suggest alternatives!

Supporting electronics on hand are a WiiM Ultra streamer (streaming + hdmi arc + phono preamp) and a 3e audio amp that can be repurposed in case of using active speakers. I'm not set on a using a subwoofer but may wire a line-level connection to a wall plate to make it possible and tidy if I want it later. I'm a little concerned about it being a phase mess in the dining area.

I'm super excited for this renovation and my family's buy-in on including my audio preferences. I appreciate this community's ideas to refine and shape it into tip-top shape!

 

[kyuu]

While I'm normally a booster of in-wall speakers, I'm not sure they are a good option here due to the cabinetry. They are designed to be "infinite" baffle, and I think the cabinetry will essentially terminate the baffle far too early and the frequency response might be negatively affected due to that. Also, you're going to get all kinds of reflections off the cabinetry. Finally, are you sure the wall studs are positioned in a way that will even make it possible to position them properly?

I'm thinking your best bet will be bookshelves with the baffle placed even with the edge of the shelving (to avoid reflections off the shelf and surrounding cabinetry).

 

[bogart]

While I'm normally a booster of in-wall speakers, I'm not sure they are a good option here due to the cabinetry. They are designed to be "infinite" baffle, and I think the cabinetry will essentially terminate the baffle far too early and the frequency response might be negatively affected due to that. Also, you're going to get all kinds of reflections off the cabinetry. Finally, are you sure the wall studs are positioned in a way that will even make it possible to position them properly?

I'm thinking your best bet will be bookshelves with the baffle placed even with the edge of the shelving (to avoid reflections off the shelf and surrounding cabinetry).

Thanks for weighing in on this! I feel exactly the same way - without the cabinetry I would have 100% preferred in-wall speakers. The wall behind is entirely brick today, so very likely we'd build out from there and could design around it. I take your point that getting baffles to the front edge of the shelves is likely to be the cleanest answer (and I believe our host @amirm has his Revel bookshelves set horizontally in his entertainment center).

 

[bogart]

Looking at options for bookshelf speakers that fit nicely in this space and are well behaved, I've shortlisted a few. My basement has a theater setup with Revel floorstanders, so we're not looking for high SPL output.

• Coaxial: KEF Q3meta/Concerto meta/LS50 metas - all are rear ported
• Buchardt P300 - passive radiator at rear
• Other options?
  • Philharmonic BMR's are 20" tall - too big!
  • Revel M16/105/106 also rear ported, also quite glossy finishes call attention to themselves
  • Actives like Neumann 120 are interesting but not super aesthetic, Genelec much less so...

Also curious if anyone has experience with putting a subwoofer into a "2 zone" kind of room and whether it can work if the placement is closer to the center of the space.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for weighing in on this! I feel exactly the same way - without the cabinetry I would have 100% preferred in-wall speakers. The wall behind is entirely brick today, so very likely we'd build out from there and could design around it. I take your point that getting baffles to the front edge of the shelves is likely to be the cleanest answer (and I believe our host @amirm has his Revel bookshelves set horizontally in his entertainment center).

In my day job I face these questions everyday and have a fair amount of experience dealing with this type of situation.

If you use your bookshelves for bookshelf speakers the speakers MUST be flush with the leading edge of the cabinetry or your frequency response will be dramatically affected. I have been asked to do this for our clients on several occasions and even lining the area around the speaker with absorptive material, the affects are dramatic and while the peaks can be equalized, the nulls will not completely go away.

You mentioned TV audio. I am assuming the artwork shown above the turntable is a Frame TV?

I think you should move the turntable to the left or right and place a center channel speaker in that location. I would add an in-wall sub in the corner behind the curved part of the couch, and a pair of in-ceiling speakers above the couch for surround duty.

For dedicated music you would use the bookshelves with or without the sub, for background/casual listening you would use all speakers set to all channel stereo, and then for TV watching you would use the 5.1 setup.

FWIW: I have used both Revel M106 and KEF LS50s in similar scenarios and they each sorta worked. As long as you accept that this layout is one that places aesthetics above audio performance, you can be quite satisfied with it.

If you are building a custom bookcase and have the budget, I have had quite good results incorporating line source speakers in the vertical sections of the casework. The Wisdom Audio Insight L8i has worked really well in similar situations, but they are costly and require careful construction of the cabinetry.

 

[bogart]

In my day job I face these questions everyday and have a fair amount of experience dealing with this type of situation.

If you use your bookshelves for bookshelf speakers the speakers MUST be flush with the leading edge of the cabinetry or your frequency response will be dramatically affected. I have been asked to do this for our clients on several occasions and even lining the area around the speaker with absorptive material, the affects are dramatic and while the peaks can be equalized, the nulls will not completely go away.

You mentioned TV audio. I am assuming the artwork shown above the turntable is a Frame TV?

I think you should move the turntable to the left or right and place a center channel speaker in that location. I would add an in-wall sub in the corner behind the curved part of the couch, and a pair of in-ceiling speakers above the couch for surround duty.

For dedicated music you would use the bookshelves with or without the sub, for background/casual listening you would use all speakers set to all channel stereo, and then for TV watching you would use the 5.1 setup.

FWIW: I have used both Revel M106 and KEF LS50s in similar scenarios and they each sorta worked. As long as you accept that this layout is one that places aesthetics above audio performance, you can be quite satisfied with it.

If you are building a custom bookcase and have the budget, I have had quite good results incorporating line source speakers in the vertical sections of the casework. The Wisdom Audio Insight L8i has worked really well in similar situations, but they are costly and require careful construction of the cabinetry.

Super thoughtful response! Many thanks for your detailed contributions.

You're correct, the artwork above the turntable is a TV - Frame TV optional My research suggests the off-axis viewing is pretty meh, and Samsung's newer TV OS is riddled with junky ads. I'd be perfectly happy with a nice OLED or just something with better picture quality and a simpler Smart OS. Since we can slide the panels to cover the TV, the art display features are less important to me.

In addition to the absorbent material around the speaker, is there there any benefit to the speaker height "matching" the shelf height more closely? If I've got 15" of height, is it better to fill it than to use a 10" speaker with more space above it?

I love the suggestion of a sub behind the curved couch section! I had completely missed that possibility so far. It may not be able to be in-wall, but almost certainly could tuck something in there. I'm inclined to move the turntable as well - I don't want light reflections off its dust cover when the TV is on. For this small of a room, do you think the center is critical, or can we get by with a phantom center? Our theater setup currently does this and I'll admit it's somewhat mixed results. I am hoping to avoid an AVR in favor of using the WiiM ultra - hence the question as I prioritized 2.0/2.1.

The bookcase will definitely be custom, I will look into the Wisdom audio products for potential inclusion. We're definitely making aesthetics the priority for this room, and the alternative is more likely a Sonos soundbar (which is not my preference based on years of frustration with our current system!).

 

[Mr. Widget]

I definitely prefer Sony TVs to the Samsungs, but the art mode in the Frame TV is pretty compelling when aesthetics take the lead.

Regarding the speakers, just make sure the speaker baffle is as close to flush with the leading edge of the bookcase as possible. This doesn't look as nice, but it is important for audio performance. As you push the speaker back into the bookcase the early reflections cause some pretty weird cancellations.

 

[kyuu]

Well, I can't help too much with custom cabinetry options. Although it occurs to me you could potentially use an in-wall speaker on the front of the cabinetry like so:

Depicted speakers (adjusted roughly to scale... I think) are the Revel W763. If your budget is bigger you might consider the Revel W126Be.

Dunno how that would work with your sliding doors, though.

Or for something that would fit on the shelves as they are in the original drawing, you might consider the Ascend HTM-200SE2.

 

[youngho]

Speakers in bookshelves will cause cavity resonances. Here's an example from second edition of Sound Reproductio by Floyd Toole:

And in cavity:

So lower your expectations accordingly. Cardioid speakers like Mesanovic CDM65 or Dutch & Dutch 8C likely more than you want to spend, also setup even if close to boundary may still be more obtrusive than you'd like.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Speakers in bookshelves will cause cavity resonances. Here's an example from second edition of Sound Reproductio by Floyd Toole:

Exactly... and even proper soffit mounting which will give you a true 2π situation and will get rid of the cavity resonances and reflections will negatively affect a typical loudspeaker that was designed for 4π environments.

 

[bogart]

Speakers in bookshelves will cause cavity resonances. Here's an example from second edition of Sound Reproductio by Floyd Toole:

View attachment 430601

And in cavity:
View attachment 430602

So lower your expectations accordingly. Cardioid speakers like Mesanovic CDM65 or Dutch & Dutch 8C likely more than you want to spend, also setup even if close to boundary may still be more obtrusive than you'd like.

Super helpful contribution! Great reference and demonstration of the disruption. That reasonable directivity sure takes a beating! It definitely looks like some amount of PEQ could address some resonances, so starting with a well-behaved speaker and measuring will be even more important than usual. Also suggests a higher crossover point might be helpful too.

 

[youngho]

Exactly... and even proper soffit mounting which will give you a true 2π situation and will get rid of the cavity resonances and reflections will negatively affect a typical loudspeaker that was designed for 4π environments.

Also from second edition of Sound Reproduction by Floyd Toole:

I'm assuming that OP does not want to stuff the bookshelf cavity with fiberglass, but if so, it would make things less bad:

 

[youngho]

Super helpful contribution! Great reference and demonstration of the disruption. That reasonable directivity sure takes a beating! It definitely looks like some amount of PEQ could address some resonances, so starting with a well-behaved speaker and measuring will be even more important than usual. Also suggests a higher crossover point might be helpful too.

Here are some thoughts from an amateur who has read a little bit:

I'm sure you know that PEQ won't help with the nulls or destructive interference. Where to start is not "a well-behaved speaker." The starting point is one's priorities, which here are significantly constrained by the room and layout, but you already said that you're looking for pleasant and apparently mostly background listening.

A relatively symmetric environment with respect to loudspeaker and listener is generally recommended for stereophonic listening. You have a highly asymmetric setup illustrated above with a side boundary relatively close to the left speaker, similarly with respect to the listener. I can't tell what sort of boundary is directly behind the listening position--windows? Half height wall?

You may be able to ameliorate the negative effects of the asymmetry with respect to loudspeakers by choosing highly directional/directive designs, also the negative effects of the boundary/wall behind the speakers with cardioid directivity. You could possibly also address some of the proximal boundary interference by replacing the presumably solid back wall of the cabinet with fiberglass, at least 6-8" but preferably much more, as much as you can possibly get away with. The tricky thing is that spacing the speakers further from the brick wall you describe causes a lower frequency of cancellation, which is harder to address. You may be able to address that issue to some degree by using layers of increasingly dense fiberglass, otherwise possibly a perforated or slat barrier in front of the absorption.

Probably significant absorption (min 4-6") on the left wall with the window would be needed, possibly also some diffusion on the opposite wall in the dining area. Further addressing the listening position would be impossible without further information, but likely significant absorption would be needed here, as well.

You're probably best off with something like Sonos with a few subs, so that you can do auto-EQ. Maybe the bass resonances from the length (front to back, just to clarify since the width is the longest dimension here) of the room might balance out the suckout from the negative speaker-boundary interference effects. You can always turn on CC for movies/TV and ignore the acoustics issues in the critical frequencies.

Young-Ho

 

[bogart]

Here are some thoughts from an amateur who has read a little bit:

I'm sure you know that PEQ won't help with the nulls or destructive interference. Where to start is not "a well-behaved speaker." The starting point is one's priorities, which here are significantly constrained by the room and layout, but you already said that you're looking for pleasant and apparently mostly background listening.

A relatively symmetric environment with respect to loudspeaker and listener is generally recommended for stereophonic listening. You have a highly asymmetric setup illustrated above with a side boundary relatively close to the left speaker, similarly with respect to the listener. I can't tell what sort of boundary is directly behind the listening position--windows? Half height wall?

You may be able to ameliorate the negative effects of the asymmetry with respect to loudspeakers by choosing highly directional/directive designs, also the negative effects of the boundary/wall behind the speakers with cardioid directivity. You could possibly also address some of the proximal boundary interference by replacing the presumably solid back wall of the cabinet with fiberglass, at least 6-8" but preferably much more, as much as you can possibly get away with. The tricky thing is that spacing the speakers further from the brick wall you describe causes a lower frequency of cancellation, which is harder to address. You may be able to address that issue to some degree by using layers of increasingly dense fiberglass, otherwise possibly a perforated or slat barrier in front of the absorption.

Probably significant absorption (min 4-6") on the left wall with the window would be needed, possibly also some diffusion on the opposite wall in the dining area. Further addressing the listening position would be impossible without further information, but likely significant absorption would be needed here, as well.

You're probably best off with something like Sonos with a few subs, so that you can do auto-EQ. Maybe the bass resonances from the length (front to back, just to clarify since the width is the longest dimension here) of the room might balance out the suckout from the negative speaker-boundary interference effects. You can always turn on CC for movies/TV and ignore the acoustics issues in the critical frequencies.

Young-Ho

Young-Ho, while your medicine is a dose of strong medicine and a little discouraging, it remains very helpful.

Unfortunately, ever since I stopped being a bachelor and moved to a high cost real-estate city, I've not had the luxury of purpose-built rooms for listening. My basement 'theater' setup has a similarly penned-in, asymmetric layout that may be even worse! My experience in that room taught me that it's worth it to start from a higher system potential (i.e. well-behaved speakers, applying room EQ, etc.). I'm aware this room will have flawed characteristics, but my intent it to produce something pleasant within those limits.

The news for what is behind the listener at the couch is even worse This will be a partition wall (not a full thickness, but likely full height) - it's not been specified yet, but I can guarantee it will be highly reflective surfaces like glass or wood! We might consider a 'slatted' partition wall, but it's a bit trendy and wouldn't control much of the winter draft coming in the front door behind the couch. I take your suggestions for absorption and diffusion on the opposing walls - we may accomplish the diffusion well on the dining wall, but absorption will be difficult on the window wall.

Re-framing the issue somewhat, the baseline case here is using the TV sound, which is guaranteed horrible. The Sonos soundbar is certainly an upgrade from it, and we know they can sound pretty fair. Your point around a much narrower directivity speaker is the most thought-provoking for me. I had been thinking more about controlled directivity, but narrowness here is definitely a virtue too.

Although cost makes them unlikely, would the active cardiod options (D&D, Kii, Mesanovic) even function as designed in the partially-enclosed bookshelf? It felt like there's something in there that would defeat the design if it's not in free space.

 

[youngho]

The news for what is behind the listener at the couch is even worse This will be a partition wall (not a full thickness, but likely full height) - it's not been specified yet, but I can guarantee it will be highly reflective surfaces like glass or wood! We might consider a 'slatted' partition wall, but it's a bit trendy and wouldn't control much of the winter draft coming in the front door behind the couch. I take your suggestions for absorption and diffusion on the opposing walls - we may accomplish the diffusion well on the dining wall, but absorption will be difficult on the window wall.

This might help you feel a bit better about the wall behind the listening position: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-immersion-networks.50589/page-5#post-1912938 and https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ustics-links-and-excerpts.51487/#post-1854024

I still think you could consider making the back part of the cabinetry absorptive to address the significant nulls from SBIR or destructive interference if you're using conventional speakers, not specifically on-wall, in-wall, or boundary friendly designs.

Re-framing the issue somewhat, the baseline case here is using the TV sound, which is guaranteed horrible. The Sonos soundbar is certainly an upgrade from it, and we know they can sound pretty fair. Your point around a much narrower directivity speaker is the most thought-provoking for me. I had been thinking more about controlled directivity, but narrowness here is definitely a virtue too.

Narrow directivity speakers angled appropriately would direct more sound to the listening position relative to the rest of the room, perhaps ameliorating the asymmetry. The problem is that the directivity tends to widen at lower frequencies with conventional speakers, hence my suggestion of cardioid.

Although cost makes them unlikely, would the active cardiod options (D&D, Kii, Mesanovic) even function as designed in the partially-enclosed bookshelf? It felt like there's something in there that would defeat the design if it's not in free space.

The D&D 8C is not specifically designed to be used in free space, but rather close (10-30 cm) to a hard boundary behind them. The Mesanovic CDM65 seems to have cardioid directivity down to 150 Hz, can also be used in monopole mode with very good measurements. They would need some space to the sides, so you could try contacting D&D (@Martijn Mensink ) or Mesanovic (@deni ) to see how much.

Best of luck

 

[youngho]

Oh, besides Sonos, also could consider Kef LS50 Wireless II or one of their other wireless active designs, since they have some built-in boundary compensation adjustment and balance options, also make it easier to add additional speakers for the dining area, etc.

 

[Drej182]

I second the KEF LS50 wireless option.

 

[bogart]

I second the KEF LS50 wireless option.

Oh, besides Sonos, also could consider Kef LS50 Wireless II or one of their other wireless active designs, since they have some built-in boundary compensation adjustment and balance options, also make it easier to add additional speakers for the dining area, etc.

The LS50 does seem like a reasonable suggestion and I do keep coming back to it. Since the WiiM hardware already has channel-specific PEQ, and I've got a UMIK and can measure, my sense is that there's not a ton of missing capability to just add regular LS50's.

My kitchen already has a WiiM amp and KEF ceiling speakers

 

[Eric Natural]

Your space has all the requirements of real compromise. Such is urban living without the luxury of a perfect listening room that perhaps some ASR experts might find marginally acceptable. Nothing but respect here for their wisdom but in your case it's overkill. That main listening position with zero clearance behind the sofa is the absolute deal-killer for audio "perfection-ism". I believe just rolling with that is your challenge. Don't sweat it as you will find an acceptable compromise and it will sound great.
I wouldn't underestimate how much a 5.1 dolby bed of speakers will matter for the living space and I wouldn't overthink the audio needs of the dining space. Plenty of bleed there from the LR. I'd recco a center channel KEF beneath the TV(^second the recco of an excellent Sony oled above) and flanking L & Rs at ear level placed in the shelving. Put the pictured plant in your drawn plan on top of the sub and somehow figger a modest L & R surround into the ceiling or wall behind your couch. Small monitors @ear-level on tiny stands are even better if poss.
Best of luck !

 

[bogart]

Your space has all the requirements of real compromise. Such is urban living without the luxury of a perfect listening room that perhaps some ASR experts might find marginally acceptable. Nothing but respect here for their wisdom but in your case it's overkill. That main listening position with zero clearance behind the sofa is the absolute deal-killer for audio "perfection-ism". I believe just rolling with that is your challenge. Don't sweat it as you will find an acceptable compromise and it will sound great.
I wouldn't underestimate how much a 5.1 dolby bed of speakers will matter for the living space and I wouldn't overthink the audio needs of the dining space. Plenty of bleed there from the LR. I'd recco a center channel KEF beneath the TV(^second the recco of an excellent Sony oled above) and flanking L & Rs at ear level placed in the shelving. Put the pictured plant in your drawn plan on top of the sub and somehow figger a modest L & R surround into the ceiling or wall behind your couch. Small monitors @ear-level on tiny stands are even better if poss.
Best of luck !

Eric - spot on for the real life considerations. In Toronto, I'm feeling lucky to live in a detached home, with multiple severely compromised listening spaces. When we lived in a condo, I had only one, and the subwoofer was in storage!

I'm inclined to keep the multi-channel investment in the basement with the projection screen where late-night watching and sleeping kids aren't in direct conflict. By the way, that room ALSO features a couch with zero clearance behind that's tucked under stairs. We manage OK with just L+R+Sub, but when we get around to renovating the basement, it'll go to a proper multi-channel experience.

The latest from WiiM suggests there's changes coming on surround support, and perhaps I will hold off finalizing this Living Room design to see what they do:

The Center channel audio is processed and distributed between the Front Left and Front Right channels using the advanced algorithm. This design eliminates the need for a dedicated physical speaker for the Center channel, ensuring optimal audio reproduction.

Note that a separate center speaker is not yet supported in this version but will be added soon.

My current best thinking on how to compromise based on lots of good advice here:

• Narrow directivity speakers on shelves, coaxial if possible, with hidden foam behind if space allows
• Measure and correct resonance peaks in WiiM's PEQ, knowing some nulls will be unfixable
• Plan for a subwoofer to reduce LF resonance from the speakers in bookshelves. Hide it under the plant, no one will know!
• Get that Sony OLED everybody's talkin' about
• Throw some reasonable dining room speakers in the ceiling (KEF Ci160QR) but don't overthink them