• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Next Upgrade - DAC or Preamp? What’s the science say?

Connor1a

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 24, 2024
Messages
161
Likes
68
Location
Detroit, MI
So rabbit holes abound…

My current chain(s):

Fluance RT85 (w/ Ortofon 2M Blue Cart) -> Schiit Mani 2 -> WiiM Ultra -> NCx500 Monoblocks -> Warfedale Linton 85s

Sonos Port (legacy) -> WiiM Ultra -> NCx500 Monoblocks -> Warfedale Linton 85s

For reasons not entirely under my control (I’m joking), I’m staring at upgrading my phono stage and my WiiM Ultra’s DAC. For different reasons I just happen to be looking at two Cambridge Audio products: the Duo / Solo phone stage and the 200m DAC. My mad budget is in the 500$ +/- range for this foolishness.

Given my chain, and the fact that I listen to the nasty, glossy black thingies (about 40% of the time / 60% of the time is streaming), I’m questioning whether I would hear a difference by adding either of these devices (or frankly any competing phono stage or DAC in the same +/- price range such as the Chi-Fi brands). I’m struggling with that concept though. Is it a matter of diminishing returns? That is, is it a matter of paying 1k$ for a 10% improvement? Or perhaps 2k$ for a 15% improvement? Or perhaps, as I’m in my golden years, aka > 50, are my ears at a point where it’s unlikely I’m physically able to discern the differences?

After a fair amount of reading, I’ve read qualitative opinions all over the board. So I’m coming to the scientists…

Failing an upgrade target, there are plenty of black shiny thingies on my Xmas list… Sorry folks, I know they’re dated technology and imperfect in so many ways, but there’s something inherently sexy about 4 fingers of brown alcohol and a spinning platter... Changing albums… That dreaded hiss and crackle. If you haven’t given it a try, you should before you shoot it down. Yes yes, I know SACD rules them all, but, well…

(As an aside, I’ve not monkied around with the settings on the bottom of the Mani 2. Should I?)
 
DON'T upgrade the Wiim Ultra, its DAC is just fine. But for the phono stage, it may or may not be an upgrade. Why did you want to upgrade the Ultra in particular?
 
DON'T upgrade the Wiim Ultra, its DAC is just fine. But for the phono stage, it may or may not be an upgrade. Why did you want to upgrade the Ultra in particular?
Subjective experience + subjective reading.

Thinking through the situation, again, I’m questioning my logic though…

I was running my Sonos Port through an Emotiva PT2 and the sound was decent. The chain analog from the Port through to the amps.

I moved the Port over to the Ultra via a coax to toslink converter and the quality dropped (subjectively). So the move to digital is what pointed me toward the DAC, but to be fair, counter to my original thinking, my streaming from the Ultra is pretty decent. That’d argue again a DAC concern and lean more toward the Port’s coax out and / or the coax to toslink adapter I’m using (it was fairly “economical”)… Yes?
 
So rabbit holes abound…

My current chain(s):

Fluance RT85 (w/ Ortofon 2M Blue Cart) -> Schiit Mani 2 -> WiiM Ultra -> NCx500 Monoblocks -> Warfedale Linton 85s

Sonos Port (legacy) -> WiiM Ultra -> NCx500 Monoblocks -> Warfedale Linton 85s

For reasons not entirely under my control (I’m joking), I’m staring at upgrading my phono stage and my WiiM Ultra’s DAC. For different reasons I just happen to be looking at two Cambridge Audio products: the Duo / Solo phone stage and the 200m DAC. My mad budget is in the 500$ +/- range for this foolishness.

Given my chain, and the fact that I listen to the nasty, glossy black thingies (about 40% of the time / 60% of the time is streaming), I’m questioning whether I would hear a difference by adding either of these devices (or frankly any competing phono stage or DAC in the same +/- price range such as the Chi-Fi brands). I’m struggling with that concept though. Is it a matter of diminishing returns? That is, is it a matter of paying 1k$ for a 10% improvement? Or perhaps 2k$ for a 15% improvement? Or perhaps, as I’m in my golden years, aka > 50, are my ears at a point where it’s unlikely I’m physically able to discern the differences?

After a fair amount of reading, I’ve read qualitative opinions all over the board. So I’m coming to the scientists…

Failing an upgrade target, there are plenty of black shiny thingies on my Xmas list… Sorry folks, I know they’re dated technology and imperfect in so many ways, but there’s something inherently sexy about 4 fingers of brown alcohol and a spinning platter... Changing albums… That dreaded hiss and crackle. If you haven’t given it a try, you should before you shoot it down. Yes yes, I know SACD rules them all, but, well…

(As an aside, I’ve not monkied around with the settings on the bottom of the Mani 2. Should I?)

No reason for a new DAC. The Wiim Ultra is as good as any out there within audible limits. The biggest improvement you can make is to replace your phono preamp with a Waxwing.
 
No reason for a new DAC. The Wiim Ultra is as good as any out there within audible limits. The biggest improvement you can make is to replace your phono preamp with a Waxwing.
Took a second for the penny to drop. Brilliant.
 
I'd get better speakers rather than screw around with different pre-amps/dacs (providing they provide the basic functions you need them to do).
 
Just got one of these delivered and plugged it into my my pixel and HD6xx's. Sounds good...but after about 5 minutes of listening the dongle got so hot that I burned my fingers when touching it. Yikes
 
Cambridge phono stages are among the better around, but the Shiit is in general also not bad. Maybe it's just the tuning of your turntable (did you calibrate the cell like it should?). I also don't know what the quality is of that turntable, the cell should be ok, altough i'm not a fan of it (can be better for less money with AT cells). But it should sound good when calibrated right as "better" in this case is nitpicking. Don't change that until it's worn out.

I agree on the Wiim, it's higher resolution than our ears, and won't be the limiting factor (as long as it's working functional). The amp should also not be a problem, both are not upgradeble on tech level as "better" won't sound better to your ears. The speakers are also great speakers for the kind of speakers they are. But those may not fit what you like.

The only thing i would change in your setup is add room correction and the turntable, to a technics direct drive turntable (but again, if the fluance is decent, difference will be very small). But for the rest you got a quiet good setup that does not need to be changed at all. Maybe even the only thing that must change is the room, positioning and acoustics. That can have (and often has) a huge impact on the sound, way more than the gear itself.

Speakers are always the weakest link when the rest is half decent. So maybe go listen arround to many speakers to find out what fit you best. I guess it will be largely neutral speakers, but even there small variations can make a difference. I don't like (subjectivly Genelec, while i love the Neumann speaekers. They both measure more or less the same and very neutral, but there is a factor that still makes a difference. And that factor will probally partly subjective, even based on bias. But if you know that and it makes you happy, why not (just don't spend a fortune on it, it's not needed).
 
As others have said, forget the DAC.

Also phone stage will be a marginal improvement at best, and probably not even that - except for the "Magic" noise reduction of waxwing.

But even then, there is more of an upgrade to be had in the region of better speakers, and or room correction. You can try out room correction with the Wiim if you have not already.
 
Good system - Seeing as you use it a lot, I'd upgrade the record deck and/or the cartridge.

What you have is fine but there's plenty of room for improvement there.
 
I'd get better speakers rather than screw around with different pre-amps/dacs (providing they provide the basic functions you need them to do).
You don’t think the Warfedale Linton 85s are up to snuff? I’d thought them relatively well received…
 
You don’t think the Warfedale Linton 85s are up to snuff? I’d thought them relatively well received…
They are - but you don't get improved sound by changing electronics - unless with an amp you are lacking power and you go up x4 or so. But DACs, preamps - basically no.

Speakers however can always be improved on, but you are correct, you are going to be in the region of diminishing returns.

DSP / room equalization is also worth looking at.
 
Maybe it's just the tuning of your turntable (did you calibrate the cell like it should?). I also don't know what the quality is of that turntable, the cell should be ok, altough i'm not a fan of it (can be better for less money with AT cells).
Yes, I did calibrate the Fluance arm / headshell when I first used the TT. WRT the AT carts, I was looking at the ATVM95ML vs the ATVM95SH vs the Ortofon. The gist of the reviews / impressions I read was that the blue was (in general) on par with the other carts / not enough of an audible difference to justify a 200$ to 300$ investment. I’m still not 100% sure there. I’ve had both carts in the past, but it’s been a while. For punk, alt rock and jazz / blues, would you have an opinion? Would you recommend one over the other(s)?
 
Just got one of these delivered and plugged it into my my pixel and HD6xx's. Sounds good...but after about 5 minutes of listening the dongle got so hot that I burned my fingers when touching it. Yikes
Yeah, that can’t be good. I just smoked an amp a few days ago so I’m probably a bit sensitive. I’d send it back for a replacement. No way it should get that hot…
 
No reason for a new DAC. The Wiim Ultra is as good as any out there within audible limits. The biggest improvement you can make is to replace your phono preamp with a Waxwing.
Will try the Waxwing. I understand the purists won’t agree, and I’ll admit to some misgivings myself, but the Waxwing does something important for me (beyond the DSP). It gives me a native toslink out connection which may solve a connectivity challenge I have with the WiiM Ultra. Right now, I need the WiiM to connect to a Sonos Port + a TT. The WiiM only has one analog in port plus a phono in port (which did not test well here on ASR). So to avoid the phono in port (and its phono stage), I need one of those 2 devices to connect through the WiiM’s optical in port so the other can use the analog in port. The TT is an immediate no (without the Waxwing). The Sonos Port has a coax out port, but I then need to convert that to toslink which right now sounds flat to my ears when coming through the WiiM (contributing to my misguided thinking that I may need to look at the DAC). The Waxwing’s native toslink out (its lowest noise connection) “perhaps” gives me an optimized TT digital connection leaving me the analog in for the Sonos Port. And then there are all of the DSP goodies that come with the Waxwing. So it’ll be interesting to hear what that little device can do. I even read where you can maintain your existing phono stage as a device in your chain along with the Waxwing (though I’m not entirely sure why you’d want to do that). Anyway, some good fun to be had. Thank you for the recommendation!
 
The only thing i would change in your setup is add room correction and the turntable, to a technics direct drive turntable (but again, if the fluance is decent, difference will be very small). But for the rest you got a quiet good setup that does not need to be changed at all. Maybe even the only thing that must change is the room, positioning and acoustics. That can have (and often has) a huge impact on the sound, way more than the gear itself.
My room leaves a lot to be desired. I live in a circa 1940s house. Back in the day, houses were much smaller. People were smaller. I’m a 6’3” sasquatch and it feels like my head is scrapping the ceilings. My “lounge” is rectangular. Say perhaps 10x18. Add in a few chairs, a sofa and some tables and the room doesn't have much in the way of free space. Speaker placement is a B. Wall treatments are pretty much impossible. One full wall is a glass window w/ blinds; no curtains. The other long wall opens up into the kitchen and a hall (so there are literally no walls to work on). It’s just a difficult space to work. Even getting the speakers out a foot from their back wall is nearly impossible. I’ve been considering plugging up their back ports in an effort to reduce “boominess” (though funny enough bass boom really isn’t that bad). And so on. I’ve no doubt whatsoever that a better listening space would improve my experience.

WRT the Fluance deck, I just bought it six months ago. It received good reviews for what it is. That is, a sub 750$ deck competing vs Pro-Ject and Audio Technica. I could have gone vintage. I waffled on DD vs belt. I chose belt based upon the specs knowing that I’ll need to change the belt every 12 to 18 months (probably longer, but 18 months just to be safe). I didn’t need / want all the “DJ” features of the Audio Technica decks. They struck me as cheesy + I didn’t / want the BT or USB features. The lower end Pro-Ject decks just didn’t review / spec as well. I’m sure others will disagree with me as there were a myriad of opinions / even religions. Worst case, I’ll sell the deck in another year or two and loo to upgrade. However, I have been staring at the carts wondering if there’s any value to be had in changing those out someday. I have the Ortofon Blue right now and have been looking at the Audio Technica AT series carts. I’d like to try the ATVM95ML or SH carts, but need to wait for some more mad money to accrue (as I just bought a Waxwing to try - if it goes back I can try an ML perhaps though there’s a lot of debate whether that’d be a meaningful upgrade vs the Ortofon I already have).

Anyway, I really appreciate your response. Thank you.
 
The science says, "Dump the vinyl". ;)

Don't be afraid of EQ or "room correction". And if you are going to measure the room, maybe some acoustic treatment depending on what the measurements show.

And yeah... Different speakers will ALWAYS sound different (better or worse).

That is, is it a matter of paying 1k$ for a 10% improvement? Or perhaps 2k$ for a 15% improvement? Or perhaps, as I’m in my golden years, aka > 50, are my ears at a point where it’s unlikely I’m physically able to discern the differences?
The digital stuff is probably already better than human hearing. The electronics is probably better than human hearing too unless you don't have enough amplifier power, or unless you are hearing noise (hum, hiss, or whine) from your speakers.

On the vinyl side, no matter how much you spend you'll never match the sound of cheap digital. It will always be technically inferior. (Some people like the sound of vinyl and they are not bothered by the 'snap". "crackle", and "pop", etc.. To them it sounds better and we can only say that digital is technically better.)

After a fair amount of reading, I’ve read qualitative opinions all over the board. So I’m coming to the scientists…
Most of the audiophile community is nuts! And most reviews are full of flowery undefined nonsense-language. See Audiophoolery
 
They are - but you don't get improved sound by changing electronics - unless with an amp you are lacking power and you go up x4 or so. But DACs, preamps - basically no.

Speakers however can always be improved on, but you are correct, you are going to be in the region of diminishing returns.

DSP / room equalization is also worth looking at.
Thank you for the reply.

DSP is a topic I’d like to dig into… The WiiM offers RE which is supposedly still developing / maturing. It’s not up to the level of Dirac, but the gap is closing. I say that never having tried Dirac. That statement is based solely upon what I’ve read and the fact that I’ve already seen one WiiM firmware update with RE functionality changes (some would say upgrades). Sonos has their flavor of RE which I’m much more familiar with. I’ve been using Trueplay for years. I can attest to the fact that it changes the their sound, but whether for the good or bad is debatable. My personal experience is mixed. It can fine tune more than it can “correct” from what my ears have heard. I’d say my limited experience with WiiM is about the same. It’ll fine tune vs correct. For larger corrections you need to get into the parametric EQ (something Sonos doesn’t offer). I’m not at a point in this “hobby” where I know enough to muck around with the EQ settings beyond what I’d call “fiddling”. Regardless, I’d like to try Dirac at some point. The MiniDSP may be in my future once my discretionary $$ are back up to snuff.

Anyway, thank you again for the reply…
 
I have a similar system: Phase Linear Model 8000 -> Parks Audio Waxwing -> WiiM Ultra -> Yamaha M-70 -> Warfedale Linton 85s

For carts I have a Denon DL-103, Nagaoka MP-110, and an AT-VM95SH. To be honest the AT cart is my least favorite but you could maybe say it is the closest to digital. Vinyl is just for fun for me and I don't need it to sound just like the digital version, however I do love the magic feature of Waxwing for removing pops. The Waxwing is truly a joy to use with the ability to play with the app while listening. If you're anything like me you will enjoy it.

I am also still playing with the EQ filters of the Wiim Ultra from time to time. I tried the EQ settings from Spinorama.org for the Wharfedales but wasn't completely satisfied. I ended up creating my own set of speaker correction filters which I prefer. I briefly tried the automated room correction but did not like how it sounded or looked on the graph. Since then I have tried MMM measurements and manual room correction using REW but I am still not completely satisfied. Dialing in a particular system for a given room always takes a while for me with respect to placement and room correction. Even when I had systems with Dirac I would end up remeasuring or trying different target curves to get the sound the way I like it.
 
On the vinyl side, no matter how much you spend you'll never match the sound of cheap digital. It will always be technically inferior. (Some people like the sound of vinyl and they are not bothered by the 'snap". "crackle", and "pop", etc.. To them it sounds better and we can only say that digital is technically better.)
I’m one of those guys who’s into vinyl for the pomp and circumstance vs the sound quality. Or rather, I’m not expecting vinyl to match the quality of what I stream from Amazon or Tidal. I’m into vinyl for those occasions when I’ve a guest over, we’re knocking back a few glasses of wine, we have record jackets spread across the lounge table and we’re picking and choosing music as part of an “experience”. Sure, you can do something similar with an app, but for a guy who grew up with vinyl, dating girls who also grew up with vinyl, that shared experience trumps staring into an iPhone or iPad screen. When I’m alone, I generally stream because of the quality and convenience. No debate that that’s superior. But for entertaining, in a social environment, spinning those expensive, glossy black discs is something special… Just one old guys opinion…
 
Back
Top Bottom