Do I Need 2 Subs?

[Connor1a]

With 8 subs you could just go all across one dimension, too. Have seen great results from strips of 8 and 16 and more subs, too

1 sub I have coming. 2 subs I may be able to swing with my OCD driving me to a meaningless sense of balance. 4, 8 or 16 subs, that’s just greedy lol… Though I’m certain it’d make for a memorable listening experience!

 

[Connor1a]

Why not use a high pass filter for the 85s?

I think that this would be my approach. With one sub, I’d let the WiiM setup a high pass filter on the Lintons so that the sub was handling the 20hz to 200hz workload (see the RC graphic above). Were I to have 2 subs, I think I’d run speaker wire directly from my NCx500s to the subs and then from the subs to my Lintons and then let the subs do the x-overs / DSP duties. Do I have that right?

 

[mj30250]

1 sub I have coming. 2 subs I may be able to swing with my OCD driving me to a meaningless sense of balance. 4, 8 or 16 subs, that’s just greedy lol… Though I’m certain it’d make for a memorable listening experience!

It's not meaningless if you are able to localize the single sub. I ordered a pair of SB 3000s and one showed up before the other. I set it up in the family room and completed a quick and dirty calibration. It was far too localizable - probably much more a fault of the room than the sub itself. Once the second arrived and everything was properly integrated the problem cleared up completely.

 

[Connor1a]

It's not meaningless if you are able to localize the single sub. I ordered a pair of SB 3000s and one showed up before the other. I set it up in the family room and completed a quick and dirty calibration. It was far too localizable - probably much more a fault of the room than the sub itself. Once the second arrived and everything was properly integrated the problem cleared up completely.

I’m not philosophically against two subs. In fact, I’ve ordered a second “just in case” (it’s easy enough to return it to Amazon if not needed). This is my last big hurrah so to speak and I won’t always be listening in this particular room. So I want to go with something that gives me some flexibility in the future. Two 12” subs should do that. Regardless, now I’ll be able to try one. Listen. If it solves for the jagged bass I’m seeing, awesome. Done. If not, I have a second coming before the holiday. I can try that. If that doesn’t work, well, that’s as deep down the rabbit hole as I can get at this point… I’ll pack everything up and go back to headphones… (I’m kidding - no really)

 

[Puddingbuks]

I think that this would be my approach. With one sub, I’d let the WiiM setup a high pass filter on the Lintons so that the sub was handling the 20hz to 200hz workload (see the RC graphic above). Were I to have 2 subs, I think I’d run speaker wire directly from my NCx500s to the subs and then from the subs to my Lintons and then let the subs do the x-overs / DSP duties. Do I have that right?

No that doesn’t work that way.

You will have to use the subwoofer out on the WiiM and connect the subwoofer, and set a high pass filter on the lintons in the WiiM.

 

[Connor1a]

No that doesn’t work that way.

You will have to use the subwoofer out on the WiiM and set a high pass filter on the lintons in the WiiM.

So I’m probably misunderstanding. I thought that there were 2 ways to connect a sub(s) to my system. Option 1) Connect one via a coax cable from the WiiM to the right channel in (LFE) on the sub and then setup a high pass on the WiiM (I didn’t explain it well in my post). Option 2) If I used 2 subs, I’d run speaker cable from my NCx500s to each of the sub ins and then another speaker cable from the sub outs to the poles on the Lintons. Then I’d setup a high pass on the subs so that they’d cover the 20 hz to say 200 hz range. Otherwise, there’d be no way to do a 2 channel sub. Have I completely missed the point?

 

[kemmler3D]

Sorry for the staggered reply, this is what my WiiM generates for room correction (and what I’m trying to solve).

View attachment 414653

If this is without the sub then you might be OK once you set up the sub.

If this is WITH the sub then turn the sub up 10dB and try again.

 

[Keith_W]

As usual, ASR gives you a whole bunch of seemingly conflicting opinions but without important context!

Only one sub required for one listener: yes, but provided the subwoofer is placed properly. Nobody knows if the OP is able to place his sub properly. All of us are limited by our listening rooms, maybe there is a door, maybe the wife won't let us ... list goes on.

Two or more subs: offers more flexibility in placement and covers a wider listening area than one sub alone.

Is DSP required? I would say yes, but some people, notably Earl Geddes, think that you can get away without DSP if you use 3 or more subs - Geddes multisub method.

And the most important advice of all (IMHO!): use REW's room simulator to predict what the frequency response would be with 1 or more subs.

 

[Connor1a]

If this is without the sub then you might be OK once you set up the sub.

If this is WITH the sub then turn the sub up 10dB and try again.

Lol… This is without a sub so I’m hopeful!

 

[Connor1a]

Nobody knows if the OP is able to place his sub properly

Placement is going to be problematic. There’s zero doubt. I’ve posted a pic of my space. It’s small. Classic Detroit suburb 1940s ‘esque place.

REW's room simulator to predict what the frequency response would be with 1 or more subs.

I’d love to use REW, but unfortunately don’t have access to a Windoze or Mac laptop. All I have is an iPhone and an iPad. There are a couple of apps out that claim to provide REW like functionality, but they’re a subset of functions at best from what I can tell. My only option is going to be trial and error with both the WiiM and SVS DSPs as levers. I did order a second sub just in case, but I seriously doubt I’ll be able to find a place for it without serious give and take in my space. I may be trying to force something to fit which simply won’t. The good news is that one sub arrives tomorrow so I can hang that off the WiiM as a starter. Then let it settle a couple of days / try a few listening positions before its potential sibling arrives and then take a possible step 2… All while trying to get ready for Christmas lol.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[ZolaIII]

Try to think of it as extension of Linton's directly, literally and underneath them. Put a high crossover at 120 Hz Butterworth Q to a room decline order (you may want to plug the port's on mains and in generally to shave off response under 120 Hz all means possible). And a bass shaping self filter at 105 again Butterworth Q. Fead each sub corresponding main chenel (match them all between) and you have it (not quite better the DSP is and to 4 independent analog unbalanced output chenels for this you will be able to obtain better results and experiment). Kicking the room off and doing correction to upper mids is priority especially for doing crossover as good as possible (to math model) so in anyway you will need more PEQ's then on any of those even combined (not meaning you can't use them clever to at least address most pressing issues). MiniDSP's with 10 per bank (on each I/O chenel) is probably enough but then again if you really, really want to play you want a PC that can do convolutions PEQ's indefinitely and whatever you might want to add to a list.
You really, really need REW and UMIK 1 to get anywhere and a PC/Mac of course to even start playing.

 

[kemmler3D]

Lol… This is without a sub so I’m hopeful!

Definitely could be worse, although I'm not sure what kind of smoothing WiiM uses, if the worst dip you have is actually 10dB then if your placement happens to work somewhat in your favor, I'd expect a pretty good outcome from just one sub.

The tricky thing is that you have a dip at 120hz or so, which suggests a higher crossover for the sub.

Some will suggest pulling all the bass out of the mains (e.g. @ZolaIII 's advice) but you can fill in more nulls if you have more sources at a given frequency, so you might try not using a crossover at all and seeing what happens with the WiiM's PEQ. That is how I run my office setup (no xover, just one PEQ setup for everything) and it's pretty flat and sounds pretty good.

 

[ZolaIII]

It's methodical approach. The point of crossover so high at 120 Hz is for primary reason that it limits the transition knew of bass shaping filter above it especially when you increase bass significantly to compensate for lower programme SPL (equal loudness compensation). Play with it and see for yourself. As bass is directive somewhat over 60 Hz to 80~90 and more over it there is a need that subs stay close to belonging mains. You battle with placement and DSP eventually some acoustic treatment (for upper mids and up) if you are lucky and that's it. Gain of second sub should be about +3 dB or a little less over 80~90 in between to 60 and about +6 dB under it. 120 Hz is enough even for decent 6.5" cone to get to its own response but bigger it is it will have more headroom or lower THD stressed out like that for let's say better DR for second peaks in main bass in music materials and with decent speakers THD pretty much won't be a problem anywhere else.

 

[Chrispy]

So I’m probably misunderstanding. I thought that there were 2 ways to connect a sub(s) to my system. Option 1) Connect one via a coax cable from the WiiM to the right channel in (LFE) on the sub and then setup a high pass on the WiiM (I didn’t explain it well in my post). Option 2) If I used 2 subs, I’d run speaker cable from my NCx500s to each of the sub ins and then another speaker cable from the sub outs to the poles on the Lintons. Then I’d setup a high pass on the subs so that they’d cover the 20 hz to say 200 hz range. Otherwise, there’d be no way to do a 2 channel sub. Have I completely missed the point?

Yes, you can do it that way but looking at your sub's manual there is no high pass filter, not even on the low level input/output connections. You can only adjust the low pass filter to "blend" the speakers, all too typical of most two ch gear.

 

[Chrispy]

1 sub I have coming. 2 subs I may be able to swing with my OCD driving me to a meaningless sense of balance. 4, 8 or 16 subs, that’s just greedy lol… Though I’m certain it’d make for a memorable listening experience!

Start with the one....as said, if only worried about your own primary listening spot it can be fine. When well integrated a single sub can make for a memorable experience as well, depends on your requirements for spl and extension mostly.

 

[Ktacos]

2+ subs is where it's at, everyone needs 2 subs they just don't know it. 4 is probably the best bass I've heard so far in a room, but 2 is a bit more practical for most setups.

 

[Connor1a]

Yes, you can do it that way but looking at your sub's manual there is no high pass filter, not even on the low level input/output connections. You can only adjust the low pass filter to "blend" the speakers, all too typical of most two ch gear.

You’re right. There are evidently several ways that I can connect the subs, but none with a high pass filter.

First, and simplest, is from the WiiM Sub Out to the SVS SB-1000 Pro Low-Frequency Effects (LFE) port. The Ultra does the high pass filter. There are then 2 ways to add a second sub. 1) I can use an RCA splitter at the WiiM’s Sub Out port and then run 2 separate RCA lines to the two subs’ LFE ports or 2) I can daisy chain the subs by running an RCA line from the WiiM to the first sub’s LFE port and then running a second line from the first sub’s RCA out port to the second sub’s LFE port. Neither of these options provides 2 channel output, but then there’s more flexibility in placing the subs…

The second option is to place the subs directly under the mains and then run separate sets of speaker wire to both the mains and the subs (so that each channel has a main and a sub attached). However, as mentioned above, there’s no way to set a high pass filter (at least I haven’t seen anything yet) in that configuration (though the subs do support a low pass filter). So that’s not ideal per se, but not a show stopper either.

I don’t know how people “normally” do this, but it seems like it shouldn’t be that hard. I’ll try the one sub approach today and then see what happens. Perhaps I’ll hit nirvana on my first time at bat. In terms of preferred options, it’s a tough call. I’d like to say option 2 is the preferred, but option 2 would mean moving my mains back closer to the wall and then likely stuffing a sock into the back port to control some of the boominess while making room for the subs below. I’d need speaker wire splitters if those exist. Etc… Ah well, this is the hobby eh? Trial and error… Wish me luck…

 

[EJ3]

Two subs is not necessary for one person unless trying to solve some placement issues. If you only care about one listening position then place your listeing position and sub in a good area, EQ out any peaks and you are done. If you want the same bass in multiple listening positions then 2 or more subs plays a big rolle in bass consistency seat to seat.

Whether using one sub or multiple, placement is key. People often wantto place the sub(s) and seating where it is convenient but that is not always the best location for sound. if you only care about one seating location get one sub and expiriment with different locations.

When going from 1 sub to 2, the position of the original sub is likely no longer the best position for it.

 

[Puddingbuks]

@Connor1a a dual subwoofer setup requires dual outputs that can be individually measured and tuned (dsp). The Wiim can’t do this.

A workaround could be splitting the subwoofer channel and do sweeps and measurements on them individually (1 subwoofer) and correct via the dsp in the svs and the parametric eq.

 

[IEales]

A sub or two should definitely help. The problem with small rooms is integration, i.e. finding a suitable placement for the mains and the subs that don't require a lawyer.

Done right, results are impossible to live without. It can take a lot of adjustment to get right. Assuming the LP is directly opposite the equipment, placement will be difficult. To close to the TT risks feedback and near the LP will have a long time delay.

Smoothing out the bottom will be difficult given the speaker location in the corners. In the ≈13.5*12.3 foot room I had back in LA, the Spica TC50 were in the upper corners opposite the LP, minimizing the comb filter.

See adding a basement for details. This was written about 20 years ago.

As composer friend once remarked on the TC50s and Force sub, invisible at the end of the sofa "All that gorgeous bass isn't coming from those little speakers?"