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New Philharmonic BMR HT Towers

mj30250

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Definitely don't think the Purifi isn't hifi enough, just wondering about the usage of higher power handling mids, and tweeter, and what would be the reason they are not used in the bigger tower?
Likely due to each speaker having somewhat different goals.

The BMR tower provides more bass extension and slightly wider dispersion. It's well-suited to stereo music listening without the need for subwoofers to fill in the lowest octaves.

The HT tower provides higher sensitivity and power handling at the cost of some bass extension. It's well-suited to sub integration and high-volume listening, including for home theater purposes. I imagine that at the end of the day, if you're not approaching the limitations of either speaker, they'd sound much more similar than different.
 

JamesH

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Definitely don't think the Purifi isn't hifi enough, just wondering about the usage of higher power handling mids, and tweeter, and what would be the reason they are not used in the bigger tower?
I might be mistaken but I think the BMR mids used in the HT are somewhat new and weren't available when he designed the BMR tower. The Scan Revelator he carried over from the Phil 3 and has great low end extension and enough output for most people. The HT was specifically designed for home theater people who "need" that extra output for reference spl. I think both would sound pretty similar to each other on the top end. They both look to be voiced similarly going off of Audioholics reviews and measurements,except the BMR tower has slightly wider dispersion throughout the tweeter range.

Edited to say mj30250 beat me to it.
 
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Dennis Murphy

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I might be mistaken but I think the bigger BMR mids used in the HT are somewhat new and weren't available when he designed the BMR tower. The Scan Revelator he carried over from the Phil 3 and has great low end extension and enough output for most people. The HT was specifically designed for home theater people who "need" that extra output for reference spl. I think both would sound pretty similar to each other on the top end. They both look to be voiced similarly going off of Audioholics reviews and measurements,except the BMR tower has slightly wider dispersion throughout the tweeter range.
I would need to hear the March Audio bookshelf along side the HT towers to make any intelligent comparison. They have very different design goals, and that this point I don't think anyone can say one is better than the other. My initial question concerned the availability of a speaker that had more linear and wider dispersion than the HT towers. I think the March may be a little more linear on axis, due to its 2-way configuration which is almost always easier to pull off on axis.
 

JamesH

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I would need to hear the March Audio bookshelf along side the HT towers to make any intelligent comparison. They have very different design goals, and that this point I don't think anyone can say one is better than the other. My initial question concerned the availability of a speaker that had more linear and wider dispersion than the HT towers. I think the March may be a little more linear on axis, due to its 2-way configuration which is almost always easier to pull off on axis.
Oh I was comparing your two tower speakers,not the March Audio's.
 

Dennis Murphy

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I know--I was just making a general statement. With the March in the mix, this pretty much comes down to wide dispersion vs. narrow dispersion, at least in the horizontal plane. I would really like to have the March in my living room. That would be interesting.
 

Nkam

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I might be mistaken but I think the BMR mids used in the HT are somewhat new and weren't available when he designed the BMR tower. The Scan Revelator he carried over from the Phil 3 and has great low end extension and enough output for most people. The HT was specifically designed for home theater people who "need" that extra output for reference spl. I think both would sound pretty similar to each other on the top end. They both look to be voiced similarly going off of Audioholics reviews and measurements,except the BMR tower has slightly wider dispersion throughout the tweeter range.

Edited to say mj30250 beat me to it.

what are the differences between the two BMR midrange drivers in the BMR and HT towers besides power?
@Dennis Murphy
 

Nkam

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The bigger tower was designed as a full range music first speaker, Iirc Dennis sacrificed some output for clarity....

I don’t think the HT towers have less clarity at all compared to the regular BMR towers. One could argue that the HT might offer a bit more clarity in the lows due to the super low distortion from the purifi drivers compared to the Revelator.
the revelator and regular BMR tower just goes lower.

@Dennis Murphy would be able to clarify.
 

Nkam

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Likely due to each speaker having somewhat different goals.

The BMR tower provides more bass extension and slightly wider dispersion. It's well-suited to stereo music listening without the need for subwoofers to fill in the lowest octaves.

The HT tower provides higher sensitivity and power handling at the cost of some bass extension. It's well-suited to sub integration and high-volume listening, including for home theater purposes. I imagine that at the end of the day, if you're not approaching the limitations of either speaker, they'd sound much more similar than different.

yups that’s the way I see it as well.

however in my situation where I sit 13 feet from my speakers I would get the HT tower. And for the reason it has those purifi woofers which have been said by many to be really special with their really low distortion.

plus I like a bit less wide dispersion. But who’s to say that is noticeably different than the regular BMR tower. Don’t know. Audioholics said the regular BMR tower is a good 70deg wide and the HT around 60deg even.
don’t know how audible that is, or makes it better suited for more narrow rooms to avoid more side reflections. Don’t know
 

Dennis Murphy

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what are the differences between the two BMR midrange drivers in the BMR and HT towers besides power?
@Dennis Murphy
The main difference is that the new mid is 8 Ohms, and the older one 4 Ohms. So you can parallel the two new ones for greater sensitivity. The new one is also a little heavier duty. Probably as a consequence, it isn't as smooth in the high frequencies. But I don't run either drive above 4 kHz, so that doesn't really matter. I hope to get both towers Klippel test, and that will show up any differences in distortion at normal output levels.
 

Nkam

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The main difference is that the new mid is 8 Ohms, and the older one 4 Ohms. So you can parallel the two new ones for greater sensitivity. The new one is also a little heavier duty. Probably as a consequence, it isn't as smooth in the high frequencies. But I don't run either drive above 4 kHz, so that doesn't really matter. I hope to get both towers Klippel test, and that will show up any differences in distortion at normal output levels.
Erin to the rescue now that he set up his klippel for Tower speakers?
 

Dennis Murphy

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This is the one used on the regular BMR tower correct?

https://tectonicweb.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/TEL-DS-TEBM46C20N-4B_Rev-1.4.pdf

and this on the HT?
the one on the HT seems smoother in the low freq? Or am I misreading that?

https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Tectonic PDFs/TEBM54C30-8F.pdf
Correct. I haven't noticed much difference in the bass response linearity. In any event, I cross both units considerably higher up to take advantage of the woofer's lower distortion in the midrange.
 

Nkam

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Correct. I haven't noticed much difference in the bass response linearity. In any event, I cross both units considerably higher up to take advantage of the woofer's lower distortion in the midrange.

from what the Audioholics measurements showed both measured extremely well.

I mean both are quite textbook measurements!


IMG_1163.jpeg


IMG_1164.jpeg
 

Nkam

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And the dispersion rocks as well for both.
very few speakers have that smooth of dispersion. Waveguides or not.
speaker makers dream of getting that driver matching and dispersion. Lol

very even.

I would say the HT a dispersion is a touch smoother?


IMG_1165.jpeg
IMG_1166.jpeg
 

Nkam

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@Dennis Murphy please correct me if I’m wrong.
doesn’t the super even dispersion polar response show us that the speaker is super cohesive sounding?


because I’ve heard some 3 way speakers which sound like the bass is separate from the mids and the highs.
one speaker which immediately comes to mind is the B&W 700 series.
and the 800 series up to a point. Plus they are super bright and fatiguing.
not to diss B&W, but it was a good example I had.

thank you.
 

Dennis Murphy

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@Dennis Murphy please correct me if I’m wrong.
doesn’t the super even dispersion polar response show us that the speaker is super cohesive sounding?


because I’ve heard some 3 way speakers which sound like the bass is separate from the mids and the highs.
one speaker which immediately comes to mind is the B&W 700 series.
and the 800 series up to a point. Plus they are super bright and fatiguing.
not to diss B&W, but it was a good example I had.

thank you.
I like to think so. The controversy comes with imaging performance. Some would claim that a speaker with equally good dispersion consistency, but over a narrower horizontal band, will image more precisely. I certainly understand the theory--the narrower dispersion speaker will create wall reflections that are lower in level than those of the wider dispersion speaker, and there will be greater clarity and precision in the sound stage image. That's not what I'm hearing, even when I compare the towers or BMR monitors with a good Coax speaker. But until we have properly controlled blind tests, this issue isn't going to be resolved.
 

Nkam

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I like to think so. The controversy comes with imaging performance. Some would claim that a speaker with equally good dispersion consistency, but over a narrower horizontal band, will image more precisely. I certainly understand the theory--the narrower dispersion speaker will create wall reflections that are lower in level than those of the wider dispersion speaker, and there will be greater clarity and precision in the sound stage image. That's not what I'm hearing, even when I compare the towers or BMR monitors with a good Coax speaker. But until we have properly controlled blind tests, this issue isn't going to be resolved.

some say that imaging is more from phase coherence between drivers ( or in the crossover) , than wide or narrow dispersion.
am I saying that correctly ?
can you explain that more if possible?

Time alignment between drivers I think is still widely controversial if we can hear it or not. Thus tilted back speakers etc.

sorry if I totally butchered that.

cheers
 

Dennis Murphy

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some say that imaging is more from phase coherence between drivers ( or in the crossover) , than wide or narrow dispersion.
am I saying that correctly ?
can you explain that more if possible?

Time alignment between drivers I think is still widely controversial if we can hear it or not. Thus tilted back speakers etc.

sorry if I totally butchered that.

cheers
Another layer of complexity. And controversy. Floyd Toole insists that we cannot hear phase. And even advocates of achieving full phase coherence across the audio spectrum have to admit that a loudspeaker capable of that feat can only do so in one listening position. I try to get adjacent drivers as perfectly in phase as possible at the crossover point, not because there are audible benefits per se, but because that's the requirement to get correct summation if you're targeting even order Linkwitz-Riley acoustic slopes. In other words, optimizing phase consistency between drivers is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

And just because two drivers are in phase doesn't mean they're phase coherent. For advocates of phase coherence, the Holy Grail of speaker design is not only to keep the adjacent drivers in phase at the crossover point, but to have them reproducing the exact same cycle. For a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley crossover properly executed on a flat baffle, the tweeter and midrange will be one full cycle apart--they're in phase, but not at exactly the same point in the music. To get full phase coherence will generally require a sloped or stepped baffle, drivers with extremely smooth roll-offs, and probably a very complex crossover that maintains, say, near-perfect 1st-order acoustic slopes over a 2-octave band. And then the off-axis response may be totally screwed up. So--until someone can demonstrate that the benefits outweigh the costs, I'll pass on the Holy Grail.

Of course, all of this just applies to passive crossovers. DSP can dol all this without breaking a sweat. So I guess we should all just grow up and design speakers, or buy speakers, with active digital crossovers. Then we won't have to argue about whether phase coherence matters for proper imaging because we can flip a switch and listen to what happens to imaging with true phase coherence and with quasi-phase coherence. I've participated in demonstrations like that, and I sure couldn't hear any difference. But I'm 200 years old.
 

Nkam

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Another layer of complexity. And controversy. Floyd Toole insists that we cannot hear phase. And even advocates of achieving full phase coherence across the audio spectrum have to admit that a loudspeaker capable of that feat can only do so in one listening position. I try to get adjacent drivers as perfectly in phase as possible at the crossover point, not because there are audible benefits per se, but because that's the requirement to get correct summation if you're targeting even order Linkwitz-Riley acoustic slopes. In other words, optimizing phase consistency between drivers is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

And just because two drivers are in phase doesn't mean they're phase coherent. For advocates of phase coherence, the Holy Grail of speaker design is not only to keep the adjacent drivers in phase at the crossover point, but to have them reproducing the exact same cycle. For a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley crossover properly executed on a flat baffle, the tweeter and midrange will be one full cycle apart--they're in phase, but not at exactly the same point in the music. To get full phase coherence will generally require a sloped or stepped baffle, drivers with extremely smooth roll-offs, and probably a very complex crossover that maintains, say, near-perfect 1st-order acoustic slopes over a 2-octave band. And then the off-axis response may be totally screwed up. So--until someone can demonstrate that the benefits outweigh the costs, I'll pass on the Holy Grail.

Of course, all of this just applies to passive crossovers. DSP can dol all this without breaking a sweat. So I guess we should all just grow up and design speakers, or buy speakers, with active digital crossovers. Then we won't have to argue about whether phase coherence matters for proper imaging because we can flip a switch and listen to what happens to imaging with true phase coherence and with quasi-phase coherence. I've participated in demonstrations like that, and I sure couldn't hear any difference. But I'm 200 years old.

that last part is super interesting and thank you for that.
no kidding. Were there some in the group who could hear a difference or claim they could hear a difference?
im assuming it wasn’t a blind or double blind test.

I have Dr Tooles book and havent seen that chapter, but I am familiar with him saying how ’ adaptable’ our brains are to phase anomalies and other acoustic phenomena.

This is a pretty interesting video as well about dispersion and phase. the guy also explains a bit about how BMR Driver technology works without mentioning tectonic.

 
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