New Klipsch Jubilee speaker

[peanuts2]

Everything has compromise built into design, a horn's law of physics is no different.
There's give and take in the options of the number (and arrangement) of drivers used to make a full range speaker and no one is perfect. (horn, direct radiator, whatever.)
But your post (and this one) imply there are serious audible shortcomings in the Jubilee and JBL M2 (one of the most revered studio speakers in the world).
It's always easy to throw stones.

yes, and if you compromise by building a flagship horn speaker as a 2-way you did it wrong on purpose. you must have a smaller tweeter to keep dispersion and breakup out of the way.
M2 is ok-ish. the Jubilee? i wouldnt touch a 7" titanium driver going to 20khz unless i want an headache in the long term.

 

[fpitas]

the Jubilee? i wouldnt touch a 7" titanium driver going to 20khz unless i want an headache in the long term.

I've never heard one. But I bet you're right. I'm not a fan of the sound of small titanium diaphragms, like used in 1" throat drivers. Like a musical trash can lid.

 

[peanuts2]

the titanium 1" exit drivers i have got use around a 1.7" diaphragm. thoes have clear breakup modes within the audible range. you can imagine the problems that follows with a 7"

 

[Sal1950]

the titanium 1" exit drivers i have got use around a 1.7" diaphragm. thoes have clear breakup modes within the audible range. you can imagine the problems that follows with a 7"

I'm sure they sound just absolutely horrid and send listeners running from the room, fingers in their ears screaming.

 

[fpitas]

In my experience, when listening to rock the sound of titanium is OK, even adds a little excitement. Unfortunately, it also adds something to other forms of music.

 

[Digicile]

In my experience, when listening to rock the sound of titanium is OK, even adds a little excitement. Unfortunately, it also adds something to other forms of music.

I saw a compression driver with aluminum diaphragm. Is that better than titanium?

 

[fpitas]

I saw a compression driver with aluminum diaphragm. Is that better than titanium?

I think so, from a purely sonic standpoint. Not as sturdy for pro use, though. DJs have told me they have crashed titanium diaphragms and they worked fine after. Aluminum would probably rip apart. Mylar is also ok, not sure how it holds up. How are you using them?

 

[Digicile]

I think so, from a purely sonic standpoint. Not as sturdy for pro use, though. DJs have told me they have crashed titanium diaphragms and they worked fine after. Aluminum would probably rip apart. Mylar is also ok, not sure how it holds up. How are you using them?

I don't use them. I was just with a friend who showed me some speakers he has for his band.

 

[fpitas]

I don't use them. I was just with a friend who showed me some speakers he has for his band.

In time, used at high levels, aluminum can develop stress cracks. So, for a band or pro use, titanium is the way to go. Beryllium is best, as it's tough as nails and sounds great, but it's a bit pricey for most people.

 

[Godataloss]

A dwarf compared to the Jubilee, at 70" x 50". I'm always happy to see DIY implementations of the old stuff. I'm sure yours is impressive. Back in the day, much of it was DIY. I think Paul Klipsch licensed his designs for hobbyists, and others too.

I'm reminded of Bill Hartsfield's take on the corner horn. 10 years in production, '54 to '64. Eventually morphing into the Everest, more or less.

Not buying this pair of Hartsfields four years ago is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I had just purchased a pair of Klipschorns a few months prior and despite having the green light from the missus, the shear impracticality of owning 4 speakers this large made me balk. They sounded nice, but my khorns trounced them for 1/5 the price. The gentleman sold them a week later for twice what he offered them to me for to an Asian buyer that flew in to audition them and then shipped them out of the country- a fate many Hartsfields suffered.

 

[fpitas]

Not buying this pair of Hartsfields four years ago is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I had just purchased a pair of Klipschorns a few months prior and despite having the green light from the missus, the shear impracticality of owning 4 speakers this large made me balk. They sounded nice, but my khorns trounced them for 1/5 the price. The gentleman sold them a week later for twice what he offered them to me for to an Asian buyer that flew in to audition them and then shipped them out of the country- a fate many Hartsfields suffered.

The good Altecs and JBLs often go winging East.

 

[mhardy6647]

The good Altecs and JBLs often go winging East.

way East.

Although there's a fair number of both here in Northern New England.

Reflecting on some other comments above:
Klipsch?
Harsh?

 

[Travis]

yes, and if you compromise by building a flagship horn speaker as a 2-way you did it wrong on purpose. you must have a smaller tweeter to keep dispersion and breakup out of the way.
M2 is ok-ish. the Jubilee? i wouldnt touch a 7" titanium driver going to 20khz unless i want an headache in the long term.

Not if you have a patented extended phase plug that deals with the dispersion issue.

 

[Bjorn]

yes, and if you compromise by building a flagship horn speaker as a 2-way you did it wrong on purpose. you must have a smaller tweeter to keep dispersion and breakup out of the way.
M2 is ok-ish. the Jubilee? i wouldnt touch a 7" titanium driver going to 20khz unless i want an headache in the long term.

The midrange horn in the Jubilee is the K-402 horn. The horn has been on the market a long time. In the beginning it was sold as the old Jubilee in a 2-way system. Later primarily offered as a 3-way to cinemas which you see below. A 3-way version was needed to get enough SPL to cinemas.

Despite that the K-402 horn is using a 2" exit, it holds the directivity quite constant up to 12 kHz. Below is my indoor horizontal measurement of it with a 4" voice coil driver with no gating. Take note that the indoor measurement close up shows a wider directivity than what it actually is. But you can still see the uniformity.

And here's a measurement of a horn we've designed with a 1.4" exit and 4" voice coil. Still cruel indoor measurement with no gating.

So as you see here, it's possible to achieve a constant directivity high in frequency without using a very small tweeter. And adding a small tweeter to a horn like this would lead to serious lobing (even at ear height) and comb filtering. Or if it was placed in the center of the horn, it would cause diffraction. Synergy horns also has its compromises. So you have to pick your poison here. IMO, a quality 1.4" or 1.5" exit driver works great in the highs with a horn that maintains the directivity high up. Using a 2" exit driver is a bigger compromise.


The new Jubilee uses the Celestion AXi 2050 driver. A 2" exit driver with 5" voice coil. I tested the driver in the Klipsch K-402 horn. It certaintly never gives you a "headache". Quite the contrary, the driver sounds very laid back and non fatiguing. The weakness of the driver IMO is that the distortion is quite high compared to a SOTA 1.4" or 1.5" exit driver. But the distortion never gives a harsh sound. Instead it leads to lack of clarity and "resolution" and is part of the reason why it's non fatiguing. The driver has less SPL in the highs because of the large mass. It doesn't have any serious break up.

Something I find more troublesome with new Jubilee, is how they have added the veneer to the K-402 horn. It's not continious, with the result of creating a corner with potential diffraction issues.

 

[Ra1zel]

The weakness of the driver IMO is that the distortion is quite high compared to a SOTA 1.4" or 1.5" exit driver.

Just a question, which compression drivers would you consider sota as of now? I assume your horn speaker project uses one.

 

[Bjorn]

Just a question, which compression drivers would you consider sota as of now? I assume your horn speaker project uses one.

Radian 951BePB. TAD TD-4003 is also a great driver but not manufactured anymore and price tag at the end was way too high IMO.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Just a question, which compression drivers would you consider sota as of now? I assume your horn speaker project uses one.

I have tested and used the JBL 2440 (375) and the JBL 2441. These are both 4" aluminum dome drivers with 2" exits. I have also tested the TAD TD-4001 which is a rework of the JBL 2440 (375) with a slightly larger magnet and a beryllium diaphragm instead of the AL of the JBL original. I have also tested the TAD TD-4003 which is a more modern design with an even more powerful neodymium magnet, reworked phase plug, a new design for the 4" Be diaphragm with only 1.3 grams of moving mass, and a 1.5" exit. I also measured and compared the JBL 476Be with the TAD TD-4003. Lastly I measured a few different JBL drivers with the Materion made beryllium replacement diaphragms. (Sold under the TruExtent name.)

Based on all of this research carried out over several years, the TAD TD-4003 is definitely the best compression driver that I have encountered. I have heard the extremely costly ALE drivers in the Magico Ultimate speakers... they sounded great, but I can't comment on the drivers as I have no data.

I saw a compression driver with aluminum diaphragm. Is that better than titanium?

Compression drivers have been made with phenolic resin impregnated cloth, mylar, aluminum, titainium, magnesium, and beryllium. One of the principal differences is the mass break point of the different materials. This is the point where the diaphragm produces and resonant peak and exhibits relatively high distortion. The non metallic diaphragms produce less audible distortion products, but they also do not typically operate as high in frequency. In general you want the mass break point to be as high in frequency as possible and ideally out of the passband. The better the material the higher in frequency the mass break point is.

Because of its extremely low mass, beryllium (number 4 on the atomic chart!) and well damped characteristics, it is absolutely the best material to use for transducers. Magnesium is the next best material, followed by aluminum and finally titanium. As has been mentioned. Ti has been used due to its low failure rate.

On the subject of Be. Virtually all of the manufacturers who use real Be in their drivers, be it the dome of a Focal or Revel speaker, a JBL, or a Radian... they have their domes (compression driver or standard domes) produced by Materion out of beryllium foil that is drawn into shape. Materion is one of the world's leaders in beryllium production and fabrication. TAD and Yamaha back in the day are exceptions. They both use vapor deposition to produce their domes, and in the case of the TAD they also use this process for their mid drivers cones.

The vapor deposition process produces a much more rigid Be diaphragm. This gives it better acoustic properties, but it does produce a diaphragm that is more fragile. When a TAD driver is driven excessively hard the diaphragm can shatter. In a worst case scenario this can produce toxic Be dust. The Materion Be foil will not shatter, but it can tear.

Sorry... probably more info than was needed.

Radian 951BePB. TAD TD-4003 is also a great driver but not manufactured anymore and price tag at the end was way too high IMO.

I have talked with the new US importer of TAD Professional. They have plans to bring certain TAD drivers back to the market including the costly but excellent TD-4003.

 

[Sal1950]

Sorry... probably more info than was needed.

Absolutely not! Thanks very much for the enlightening post.
I enjoyed it very much and learned a lot about BE.
Thanks Again, Sal

 

[Bjorn]

I have talked with the new US importer of TAD Professional. They have plans to bring certain TAD drivers back to the market including the costly but excellent TD-4003.

I have a feeling the price will not drop.

While I'm always looking for improvements in the transducer, I've found that the horn itself is far more important. And especially when you already have a driver using beryllium with low breakup and distortion. Any further upgrade is likely to be miniscule, while improvement in the horn design and especially related to the directivity is huge.

However, it's often easier to sell something exotic and expensive to certain markets. If you talk about directivity and the importance of minimizing vertical reflections, they are not necessarily understood. But if you present a very expensive driver with some great marketing lyrics it will sell.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I have a feeling the price will not drop.

I would expect it to go up. These parts are very high precision and made of costly materials.

While I'm always looking for improvements in the transducer, I've found that the horn itself is far more important. And especially when you already have a driver using beryllium with low breakup and distortion. Any further upgrade is likely to be miniscule, while improvement in the horn design and especially related to the directivity is huge.

I agree that the horn is extremely important. That said, having compared several drivers on the same horn, the drivers can also make a large difference. Also, you need to match your horn and driver. Most 2" exit drivers are based on the original Western Electric design. These are drivers like the JBL 375 and up through the TAD TD-4001. These drivers have an exit that have a slow expansion and require horns with the appropriate throat geometry. Many of the newer drivers have more rapid expansion rates and require horns designed for these drivers.

Regarding minuscule differences, I have compared the JBL 476Be (original version, not the Radian sourced version) with the TAD TD-4003. I measured both drivers on the same TH-4003 horn and they measured similarly, but the TAD had slightly lower distortion, was slightly more linear, and had a slightly higher frequency mass breakpoint. These drivers are fairly similar, but the type of Be is different and the surrounds and phase plug designs are different.

However, it's often easier to sell something exotic and expensive to certain markets. If you talk about directivity and the importance of minimizing vertical reflections, they are not necessarily understood. But if you present a very expensive driver with some great marketing lyrics it will sell.

The current US importer isn't in the audiophile business. Their clients are building custom studio monitors and other pro applications. This market is less prone to the marketing voodoo of domestic audiophiledom.