Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

[test1223]

1. Loudspeakercabinet material : Genelec 8361 - Metal, Neumann KH420 - Wood LRIM
Does this difference matter ?

2. Genelec - dsp crossover , Neumann - active analog crossover
Does this difference matter ? Is analog better sounding than digital ?

3. Genelec - digital input eliminating the need for A/D at the input, feeding the dsp crossover directly with a digital signal. Neumann - no A/D or D/A needed.
Is there any advantages in sound depending on how this is done? Is A/D and D/A needed in a dsp a bad thing for sound quality ? Or is it better ?

4. Genelec - GLM dsp room correction inbuilt. Neumann - no room correction.
Do you really need room correction ? Maybe its better to optimise the loudspeaker placement ?

5. How is the second hand market ? How much do you loose after , say, 5 years of use and you want to sell them ?

This are some questions one could tell yourself…

Otherwise - the measurements shows they are very alike. Really good loudspeakers.

There are a lot of other more important differences which you can also observe in the measurements. The KH420 has a more narrow beam. The coax and low diffraction design of the 8361 provides a much smoother directivity index over frequency which also is displayed in other more smooth of axis frequency responses. As I wrote earlier the Genelec 1237 is more similar to the KH420.

 

[Shiva]

Just a heads up, you can purchase the HK420 off of Amazon, with free shipping. Though you better hurry, they only have one left in stock.

Neumann KH 420 Studio Monitor + Free Shipping

Buy Neumann KH 420 Studio Monitor: Studio Monitors - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

[DMill]

 

[fineMen]

There are a lot of other more important differences which you can also observe in the measurements. The KH420 has a more narrow beam. The coax and low diffraction design of the 8361 provides a much smoother directivity index over frequency which ...

What, for the sake of argument, would You gain from "... has a more narrow beam. The coax and low diffraction design of the 8361 provides a much smoother directivity index over frequency ... "?

I'm only curious. Are You all into technical data of speakers You cannot use because You cannot afford to buy them to bring them into use?

The differences are on a one dB level--were You ever by whatever means personally capable of measuring Your 'house curve'?! How do You equalise to which standard? Just curious, thank You so much!

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

That there is a Genelec bent in ASR constituency is clear and understandable: The company churns out on a regular basis great products with forward thinking engineering and performance. It needs to be clear to all that Neuman has never taken a back seat to Genelec. as a matter of facts, they are their most serious competition. This KH420 is the superior speaker, in most areas. That such is achieved without DSP is not a minus but a plus in my book. That it was achieved many years ago, let you know how good these people at Klein and Hummel have been and for a long while, perhaps before Genelec.

People should not think that High , actual, performance in a room is automatic because of the intrinsic qualities of the speaker. We need to be reminded of this regularly: The Kii3, The D&D 8c, etc.., however amenable they may be to domestic environments do not automatically perform superlatively when placed in a domestic or studio environment, for that matter. In the case of the Kii3, I don't know what DRC or EQ is provided , in the case of the 8c, one needs to master, yes, master REW to extract the best from it... Genelec does provide the GLM tool for its DSP speakers such as the 8361.. Neuman does provide the MA-1, but it requires that the speakers be DSP-equipped or if not, then that at least, the subwoofer must be DSP.. which tends to force you into an all Neumann solution .. then again GLM is an all Genelec solution too... GLM doesn't control non-Genelec subwoofers .. you could cobbler a GLM with another DSP/EQ but ... it becomes a Rube Goldberg situation with GLM for the Genelec and whatever DSP/EQ you use for the subwoofers and integration, will be difficult, definitely not ideal...
Soooooo.. here we are, likely the best speaker reviewed by @Amir thus far.

Peace

 

[Sancus]

It needs to be clear to all that Neuman has never taken a back seat to Genelec. as a matter of facts, they are their most serious competition.

I don't think they have. Genelec is simply easier to recommend because they have a fuller and more flexible product lineup.

Thankfully Neumann is finally addressing the gap between the KH120 and 310 at least.

 

[thewas]

Thanks thewas.

Anyone know why the O 500 was discontinued? Poor sales, perhaps?

Was it reviewed in the German audio press?

You are welcome, my guess would be that the main monitor market is too small to make a successor of the O500C which was also an older design (for example used also older drivers like for example the ATC mid dome compared to the newer and better one used in the KH 420) but you would have to ask some Neumann staff. There were for sure some measurements of Anselm Goertz, although the measurements posted on their (old) site were always accurate. https://docplayer.org/106742771-Bei...gesamtsystem-und-der-drei-einzelnen-wege.html

 

[al2002]

Found some info in post 10 here: http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-30-10936.html

but it is controversial.

Will try to find Anselm Goertz‘ measurements.

 

[DanTheMan]

ADAM offer an extended warranty.

Extend Your Warranty To 5 Years - ADAM Audio

You have the possibility to extend the warranty period of all your ADAM products by up to three years to a total of five years...

www.adam-audio.com

They do what seems a rather nice built-in DSP engine in their home stereo speakers.

I literally thought mine came with a 7yr warranty. In any case, it doesn’t matter now. They are too old now for any kind of warranty service. If one of them broke now, I would just buy the replacement part most likely. They sound so good and I didn’t expect them to last this long for sure. I enjoy these ones so much, my next speakers will likely be ADAM. I’d likely get the new X series, but the S . My current ones are from the ARTist series and look nicer(though still fairly spartan), have a better port, and have a better waveguide than the X series. Drivers are identical. I believe they do have different amps.

Their home speakers were aw inspiring…. Have looked at them or heard them for years.

 

[GDK]

in the case of the 8c, one needs to master, yes, master REW to extract the best from it...

Umm…this is a gross exaggeration. Plus, D&D provide a step-by-step guide.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I'm guessing the difference are small
But as Amir said the tonality of the 8361 is bit better
I also noticed it from comparing KH120 to Genelec 8030/8050
So yeah not the same models but i guess there's a "house sound", to each brand
So despite measuring perfectly they both should sound different than each other
To me the biggest difference is how the tweeter sounds

 

[hardisj]

Umm…this is a gross exaggeration. Plus, D&D provide a step-by-step guide.

Agreed. It's pretty simple. There are a LOT of people on the Facebook group who don't know much at all about REW or measurements but they get the hang of it pretty quickly and all seem to have positive results.

 

[amirm]

One thing to note here: Neumann is one of the rare few companies providing samples to us for testing. This speaker was shipped from Singapore from all places so quite expensive as far as shipping cost.

 

[test1223]

What, for the sake of argument, would You gain from "... has a more narrow beam. The coax and low diffraction design of the 8361 provides a much smoother directivity index over frequency ... "?

I'm only curious. Are You all into technical data of speakers You cannot use because You cannot afford to buy them to bring them into use?

The differences are on a one dB level--were You ever by whatever means personally capable of measuring Your 'house curve'?! How do You equalise to which standard? Just curious, thank You so much!

The two speakers will cause more 8361 or less kh420 none direct sound at the listening position. This is very relevant as you can see the sound power di of the 8361 is about 1.5dB lower and is also more smooth and constant. This difference in sound power di reflects the perfect listening distance which is about 2m with the kh420 and about 1.5 to 1.75m with the 8361. The none direct sound will also sound differently since its slopes are different which is very relevant.

I have done plenty of in room measurements. And as I said you can as easily measure the difference in reverberation time over frequency as you can hear the difference of such different speakers designs. Some prefer the more constant di and some prefer the less constant di. From a technical point of view it is much harder to build a more constant di speaker like the 8361.

You also completely ignore the advantage of the point source. A perfect point source like the 8361 provide a sharp smaller image. While a bigger 3 way speaker provides a more blurry but bigger image. Some even don't like the theoretically ideal point source image over a shifted multi way speaker image.

I don't know why you are so salty but if you are deeply involved in speaker design you clearly see that both speakers will sound not the same and are optimized for different scenarios and the 8361 is on paper a more perfect speaker.

 

[test1223]

I also noticed it from comparing KH120 to Genelec 8030/8050
So yeah not the same models but i guess there's a "house sound", to each brand
So despite measuring perfectly they both should sound different than each other
To me the biggest difference is how the tweeter sounds

Yes, this is the biggest difference between the 8030 and kh120 you can see this difference in the sound power di difference of both speakers. Genelec provide in general a wider beam in the higher frequencies compared to Neumann speaker.

 

[Evgeniy]

thanks for test.
result's for Step responce - speakers is not phase-linear ?

 

[jhaider]

The article is very clear and needs no interpretation.

If you enjoy the sound of a studio monitor for your home stereo, whether Neumann or from anyone else, then fine. But what they are saying is that they accept for home stereo the choice is subjective, not objective, as "most music consumers therefore prefer speakers that seem to enhance their listening experience".

That quote references a hypothesis long ago falsified by the NRC/Harman blind test data, which showed large (not universal, but supermajority) consumer preferences for loudspeakers with flat and smooth on axis response coupled with smooth off axis response. That is to say, what Neumann offers.

Pragmatically, that statement is really Neumann shouting “ignore that promotional deal B&W has with Abbey Road and similar marketing ruses - you really want to monitor on neutral speakers!”

 

[Ilkless]

This speaker was shipped from Singapore from all places so quite expensive as far as shipping cost.

Ironic then I can't find anywhere to demo the 310 and 420 in Singapore. The distribution of all models other than the KH80 and KH120 is awful. I can find the 310 with much googling at a pro audio/installation supplier - at a $1,000 more than Thomann - but I can't find anywhere selling the 420, and Sennheiser Singapore has stopped selling Neumanns directly.

However, something worth applauding is the generous international warranty of Neumanns. Effectively means there are no grey market sets so long as you buy from a reputable international seller like Thomann. Neumann really stand behind their products.

 

[wwenze]

One thing to note here: Neumann is one of the rare few companies providing samples to us for testing. This speaker was shipped from Singapore from all places so quite expensive as far as shipping cost.

Yet a pair of Neumann KH 80 costs SGD$1600 in Singapore

Conclusion: Singapore's prices are not due to shipping costs. We are just, in our language, carrot heads that like to be chopped.

 

[Waxx]

Hi

That there is a Genelec bent in ASR constituency is clear and understandable: The company churns out on a regular basis great products with forward thinking engineering and performance. It needs to be clear to all that Neuman has never taken a back seat to Genelec. as a matter of facts, they are their most serious competition. This KH420 is the superior speaker, in most areas. That such is achieved without DSP is not a minus but a plus in my book. That it was achieved many years ago, let you know how good these people at Klein and Hummel have been and for a long while, perhaps before Genelec.

People should not think that High , actual, performance in a room is automatic because of the intrinsic qualities of the speaker. We need to be reminded of this regularly: The Kii3, The D&D 8c, etc.., however amenable they may be to domestic environments do not automatically perform superlatively when placed in a domestic or studio environment, for that matter. In the case of the Kii3, I don't know what DRC or EQ is provided , in the case of the 8c, one needs to master, yes, master REW to extract the best from it... Genelec does provide the GLM tool for its DSP speakers such as the 8361.. Neuman does provide the MA-1, but it requires that the speakers be DSP-equipped or if not, then that at least, the subwoofer must be DSP.. which tends to force you into an all Genelec solution .. then again GLM is an all Genelec solution too... GLM doesn't control non-Genelec subwoofers .. you could cobbler a GLM with another DSP/EQ but ... it becomes a Rube Goldberg situation with GLM for the Genelec and whatever DSP/EQ you use for the subwoofers and integration, will be difficult, definitely not ideal or impossible
Soooooo.. here we are, likely the best speaker reviewed by @Amir thus far.

Peace

The Kii uses the dsp system that is based on what Bruno Putseys and his team made for Lyngdorf, but customised for Kii Audio. Both systems are evolutions of the Hypex dsp that he made earlier in his carreer. Kii is Bruno trying to combine all the technology and knowledge that he developed over the years to the best speaker system he could make.