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Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 29 5.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 490 93.5%

  • Total voters
    524

Eetu

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Neumann thinks they are fine for domestic use:
IMG_20220502_140459.jpg

I kinda see them as the speaker equivalent of a brutalist building and IMO would look great in a loft with some exposed concrete walls, for example.

I would not pair them with the expensive 10" Neumann subs though. Go bigger with dual SVS subs and use upstream DSP.
 

DJBonoBobo

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Neumann thinks they are fine for domestic use:
View attachment 204017
I kinda see them as the speaker equivalent of a brutalist building and IMO would look great in a loft with some exposed concrete walls, for example.

I would not pair them with the expensive 10" Neumann subs though. Go bigger with dual SVS subs and use upstream DSP.
You can find a few pictures of KH420 in private homes, for example in this thread:

Example (not my picture - source)
stndern1suz.jpg
 

thewas

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This thread has a number of posts speculating on a DSP version of the 420. At one time K+H did make what looks like a DSP 420. See: https://vintageking.com/klein-hummel-o-500-c-digital-active-studio-monitor

I’ve not been able to find any reviews of this model. Perhaps one of or German form members can comment further.
The now longer discontinued O500C was a bigger main monitor (65 kg) which had also a switchable FIR linear phase filter, had the luck to hear it in both modes and direct comparison to all the other Neumann monitors (KH80, 120, 310, 420 without and with subs) two times at their development centre in Germany in optimised placements, room acoustics and filter settings. Below a photo I had taken at one of the sessions:

1651494833110.png
 
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DJBonoBobo

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The now longer discontinued O500C was a bigger main monitor (65 kg) which had also a switchable FIR linear phase filter, had the luck to hear it in both modes and direct comparison to all the other Neumann monitors (KH80, 120, 310, 420 without and with subs) two times at their development centre in Germany in optimised placements, room acoustics and filter settings.
Was it this room? (silver ones are the O500C plus subs, next to the KH420)

index.php


Source: https://www.analog-forum.de/wbboard/index.php?thread/149694-klein-hummel-oy/
 

thewas

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Pearljam5000

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The now longer discontinued O500C was a bigger main monitor (65 kg) which had also a switchable FIR linear phase filter, had the luck to hear it in both modes and direct comparison to all the other Neumann monitors (KH80, 120, 310, 420 without and with subs) two times at their development centre in Germany in optimised placements, room acoustics and filter settings. Below a photo I had taken at one of the sessions:

View attachment 204022
Well where's the comparison;)
 

Pearljam5000

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In an untreated / minimally treated room the 8361 would sound better because it has GLM and KH420 has no DSP?
 

lherrm

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The article is very clear and needs no interpretation.

If you enjoy the sound of a studio monitor for your home stereo, whether Neumann or from anyone else, then fine. But what they are saying is that they accept for home stereo the choice is subjective, not objective, as "most music consumers therefore prefer speakers that seem to enhance their listening experience".
Ok. That's for the home/pro pseudo-dichotomy I guess.

But could you explain :
"Moreover, having these speakers at one end of a domestic room and the listening position near the other end is, but all accounts, going to be pretty terrible unless the room is well treated."
"So, whilst this is clearly a superb studio monitor for professional use, for someone with a $10k+ budget and a nice big domestic listening room, this would seem to be a poor choice of speaker."

(Since nothing from Neumann says so).
 

fineMen

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@Sancus is making the point that Sparky (Neil Gould) makes in his professional review, to which I referred ...

He has the Kii3 (with bass units) and these 420 in his studio and said the 420 are more immersive and need more room treatment, which is why I also made the observation that the Kii 3 are most likely to work better in typical homes with little or no treatment.

The root cause of the misunderstanding lies in the statement: "more directivity == less room interaction", which I read above again.

I do not, and I don't want to know who brought that up.

But it is wrong, plainly. Please take Your time to re-think it. You may be tempted to keep some pre-occupation to what people reiterate relentlessly. Withstand the easy greasy slope of accepted common wisdom (from people who do not measure, and have no specific education in the field the eagerly talk about, sorry).

First, the room-interaction may be different. In which way, then?

Only to connect to some already accepted 'concept' of room acoustics, I like to refer to the so called Schroeder frequency. It says there is a regime in which, due to
- bigger wavelength, the reflections are sparse, and hence 'discrete' and singled out in some way. The bass and lower midrange are affected, showing that nasty peaks and dips.
Above the Schroeder frequency one comes into the regime of
- smaller wavelengths with many discrete reflections, which, due to them being many, tend to equalise out one against the other

To begin with, the first take-away should be, that room interaction is unavoidable! Thing is to deal with it reasonably!

Again, below the Schroeder frequency one wants as much reflections, with differing phase when reaching the listener, as possible! Mantra: Do radiate as wide as possible!
Above the Schroeder frequency one may be fine with less reflections, but within some limits. Mute reflections too much, and the worse effects of sparse, singled out reflection chime in.
 

thewas

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Well where's the comparison;)
We are in ASR, measurements tell more than the subjective comments of random people like me, so just few short comments from my memory:

  • The differences of all models (which were also room corrected) at the good acoustics where surprisingly small at normal listening levels, which gave often a "surprise benefit" to the smaller ones like KH80.
  • Depending on music and model size the addition of the subwoofer had a significant impact.
  • The differences of the O500C in minimal and linear phase mode where from very small to small, depending on the music material.
  • KH420 sounded a bit different than the O500C but don't ask me how, it is many years since.
  • Really enjoyed the Sennheiser Ambeo Soundbar which was demonstrated in another room, which reminded me of the superiority of good multichannel compared to stereo.
 

mmi

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The article is very clear and needs no interpretation.

If you enjoy the sound of a studio monitor for your home stereo, whether Neumann or from anyone else, then fine. But what they are saying is that they accept for home stereo the choice is subjective, not objective, as "most music consumers therefore prefer speakers that seem to enhance their listening experience".
Before I knew a lot more due to this site and my own reading I bought some PSB Alpha P3 speakers soon after release for a desktop setup, plus a NAD 3020D to power them which was marketed as the amp the speakers were designed for. This was based on their published specs which made them sound very accurate: +-1.5db.

They have been measured here, it turns out not only are they not that accurate but they have resonance issues and a badly integrated crossover. About a year ago I decided to replace them and got some Genelec 8010s in white based on the measurements here, which closely match the measurements provided by the brand. Both setups cost about the same.

The Genelecs absolutely blow the P3 + 3020D out of the water in all regards, from bass depth to clarity, “warmth”, imaging, soundstage. They are much smaller, look nicer, are built like tanks, plug straight into my Mac mini headphone jack (no amp!). They have an ecosystem of stands and mounting options that are of equally high quality. I got the L stands in white and aesthetically the setup is far more pleasing and easier to use.

Should I have avoided getting these incredible speakers and stuck with the PSBs, which in comparison sounded like what you are suggesting all studio monitors ever made sound like: veiled, dark, analytical, boring?

There’s good hifi gear, there’s good studio gear, and there’s bad stuff and a lack of transparency or dodgy claims in both worlds. In the end for me it’s all about my passion for music, and I am personally very glad this site has pointed me to where the value for money lies. Maybe I am an anomaly as a consumer, in that I like buying high quality products that work as advertised?


 
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hege

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I wonder why KH420 has so basic looking waveguide. O500C (and large Genelecs) have that much more "smooth" and roundy looking ones. Cost or function? Or maybe I'm just imagining..
 
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Robbo99999

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Neumann themselves sum it up perfectly:

They say:
“When music professionals listen to music, they do it with a different mindset than music consumers. Enthusiasts simply want to enjoy the music they love as best as they can. It doesn’t really matter if the sound they hear is an accurate reproduction of what the artist intended. All that matters is the listeners’ subjective impression. Most music consumers therefore prefer speakers that seem to enhance their listening experience.”

Neumann if anyone should know, they’ve been making recording equipment for almost a century. Im not sure I’ve read such a clear explanation of the difference between professional monitors and home stereo speakers. Neumann clearly don’t think it’s a myth.

It doesn’t mean you can‘t set up your home stereo like a recording studio, as you seem to have done, but the vast majority of people without dedicated listening rooms don’t. FWIW, I don’t have any veneer on my speakers or any shiny audio (rather dull units hidden away controlled remotely), so your comments seem somewhat prejudiced.
I don't agree with their distinction they're making, I think that's b*llocks! :D That's just justification for providing subpar products. For good enjoyable sound I don't think there's a distinction between the two.
 

Robbo99999

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Not independently tested, but a local for me (Aus) maker on my shortlist for my upgrade has made eliminating distortion his mission. As far as I know it is rare to provide distortion measurements, smoothed or not. I’ve heard an old pair of his bookshelves and they were amazing to my ears for what that is worth, trying to audition this 3-way soon. Note the DB level:

View attachment 204014

Impressive! 60dB down in most of the frequency range, and 40dB down in the bass - but as you say at a crazy 110dB, so should be better than this at the 86dB and 96dB level that we test speakers here on ASR. Yes, that rivals headphones quite closely.....some low distortion headphones can do a little better than that, but that's the best I've seen in speakers I think. Is the rest of his speaker design up to the same standard?

EDIT: would be quite cool to get that tested by Amir!
 

DJBonoBobo

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This thread has a number of posts speculating on a DSP version of the 420. At one time K+H did make what looks like a DSP 420. See: https://vintageking.com/klein-hummel-o-500-c-digital-active-studio-monitor

I’ve not been able to find any reviews of this model. Perhaps one of or German form members can comment further.
You can find measurements of the O500C here: https://web.archive.org/web/2019091..._discontinued-monitors_studio-products_O500C#

It was pretty good (built 2000 - 2011)! :)

1651498021695.png


1651498050499.png

1651498064977.png
 

mmi

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Is the rest of his speaker design up to the same standard?
Yes, his whole thing is obsessive minimisation of distortion. He has a PHD in materials science and designed speakers at Linn in the 80s, so I trust he know his stuff. Edited: links on the reviews page posted below have more detailed measurements of other speakers, especially the Australian HiFi ones.

I contacted him recently regarding the off axis of this speaker and he did measurements and sent through same day. I had to layer them in photoshop but they basically looked very good, what you would hope to see from a well done three way.


Anyway I am getting off topic! I’m on Neumann threads because they are also on my shortlist. Not these beasts tho!!!
 
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hmt

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Ups, I accidentally deleted my post when I wanted to update the picture.
Yes, it looks a bit crowded but they sound very good and since I bought them in 2019 I did not think about buying other speakers again.
 

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anphex

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If they'd paint them glossy black those would make great home speakers. With the current look they just look to brutal imo.
 
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