Neumann KH150

[Ze Frog]

While the speaker dominates the steady-state response above ~1kHz, the room is small in acoustical terms (large rooms begin when at least one dimension is 55ft long, one wavelength of 20Hz), and reflections have an important role to the overall character. The path length of a single reflection, conservatively, if you are in the center of your room, will be 40ft, equivalent to 36ms, well within the fusion interval of the ear. Anywhere else in the room the pathlength and time gap will be shorter.

Frequency-dependent and likely untrue anyway, even with treatment.

Tightly controlled but not necessarily narrow. Certainly not unusual for a speaker.

Irrelevant.

Uneducated conclusion.

It's fine. I would recommend a sub for bass if you can accomodate it and to think about how you will include EQ in the signal path.

@teashea has been polluting this thread with at worst useless and best partially-correct comments for a long time.

"Minimizing room influence" is the wrong goal and wrong way to think about the interactions of speakers and rooms.

Thankyou.

Yes, I'll be running a KH750, just one to start and if I feel it needs another I'll add later. I'm not really a bass head in my older years, more about refinement.
I'm not too concerned about room influence, dispersion is 50 degrees, not really going to be a massive problem. I've never really worried about all that,room treatment and such. I'll buy the KH 150's and KH750, run MA1 and I'm sure that will be absolutely fine.

One question though, any recommendations for a cheap interface to do the calibration? I'm assuming once done I can remove that from the chain and just run via whatever ideally one box solution I go with.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Thankyou.

Yes, I'll be running a KH750, just one to start and if I feel it needs another I'll add later. I'm not really a bass head in my older years, more about refinement.
I'm not too concerned about room influence, dispersion is 50 degrees, not really going to be a massive problem. I've never really worried about all that,room treatment and such. I'll buy the KH 150's and KH750, run MA1 and I'm sure that will be absolutely fine.

One question though, any recommendations for a cheap interface to do the calibration? I'm assuming once done I can remove that from the chain and just run via whatever ideally one box solution I go with.

As for the interface pick for example the cheapest ones from eg Focusrite or Motu usually around 100bucks or so. As long as they work and have decent software drivers, which those do, the actual signal performance (eg SINAD) is secondary for MA1 purposes (yet those two above have quite decent performance so you can even use them to listen from your PC/laptop).

 

[Curvature]

Thankyou.

Yes, I'll be running a KH750, just one to start and if I feel it needs another I'll add later. I'm not really a bass head in my older years, more about refinement.
I'm not too concerned about room influence, dispersion is 50 degrees, not really going to be a massive problem. I've never really worried about all that,room treatment and such. I'll buy the KH 150's and KH750, run MA1 and I'm sure that will be absolutely fine.

One question though, any recommendations for a cheap interface to do the calibration? I'm assuming once done I can remove that from the chain and just run via whatever ideally one box solution I go with.

You can use a Focusrite or Behringer interface for the MA1. Should be fine. I used RME and a network switch for the LAN connection.

The EQ settings will be stored in the speakers, so afterwards as you say you can disconnect the interface and switch and be done with that unless moving rooms or rearranging the speaker/listening position. If you or someone else bumps the speakers from their spot (happens sometimes), don't worry about ruining the response and rerunning the procedure. EQ works over an area due to the nature of acoustics and as long as you put the speakers more or less back to where they were, they'll be fine.

Like you said, no reason to bother with treatment.

Edit: Typo.

 

[Ze Frog]

As for the interface pick for example the cheapest ones from eg Focusrite or Motu usually around 100bucks or so. As long as they work and have decent software drivers, which those do, the actual signal performance (eg SINAD) is secondary for MA1 purposes (yet those two above have quite decent performance so you can even use them to listen from your PC/laptop).

You can use a Focusrite or Behringer interface for the MA1. Should be fine. I used RME and a network switch for the LAN connection.

The EQ settings will be stored in the speakers, so afterwards as you say you can disconnect the interface and switch and be done with that unless moving rooms or rearranging the speaker/listening position. If you or someone else bumps the speakers from their spot (happens sometimes), don't worry about ruining the response and rerunning the procedure. EQ works over an area due to the nature or acoustics and as long as you put the speakers more or less back to where they were, they'll be fine.

Like you said, no reason to bother with treatment.

Great stuff.
Thanks guy's.

 

[SlothRock]

Enjoying my KH 150’s and full system on this Friday evening. As you can see, the desk is PACKED. Going to be getting a close to 8 ft desk and hopefully a lot of cable management to really clean things up at some point this month. Until then, loving the sound all the way through! Happy Friday

 

[Ze Frog]

View attachment 339975

Enjoying my KH 150’s and full system on this Friday evening. As you can see, the desk is PACKED. Going to be getting a close to 8 ft desk and hopefully a lot of cable management to really clean things up at some point this month. Until then, loving the sound all the way through! Happy Friday

Just to settle a few comments throughout the thread regarding listening distance, if you move your chair back 3 meters, with them still pointing at your ears, how does this effect sound in your opinion?

To me reading all the specs, these have more than enough output for such a scenario and the only real change although likely irrelevant almost at such a distance would be treble energy, especially not being super wide dispersion, which I think it what @teashea was trying to highlight. In theory I'd imagine at 3 meters distance this would be pretty minimal, and if needed an adjustment of start of where it tails off upward would require literally 1 or 2 dB to correct for such.

And also, surely using MA1 would/can correct this anyway during setup.

 

[Ellebob]

At 3m or even further the sound won't change much. You will hear less direct sound and more of a combination of direct and reflected sound. When you sit closer the direct sound will be more prominent.

This is true no matter the speaker, whether it is labeled nearfield or not. The further away you go the more reflections will be intermixed in what we hear. Nearfield in the pro world refers to SPL capability at a given distance and if the sound from all the drivers will be combined at that shorter listening distance. For example, if you placed a large tower speaker on a desk 1 meter from you, whichever driver(s) are nearest you would be prominent and the sound between the drivers wouldn't be properly combined. Most consumer 2 way bookshelf speakers would be labeled nearfield if they were marketed in the pro market.

Speaker design plays a role here in how the sound interacts with the room. Years ago the thought was a speaker with very narrow directivity like a horn speaker would give more direct sound when sitting further away. That proved to be wrong as even with horn speakers there still is sound outside the shape of the horn. We still hear a combined sound and that sound which is poor outside that horn is still reflecting off walls and combined with the direct sound. Try this yourself. Have someone stand to the side of you outside and talk normally and then talk with your hand cupped around your mouth like you are calling a kid to come home for dinner.

When they are to the side of you with your hands cupped they will still hear you talking. It will be reduced in volume but also it will not have the same tonal quality as when your hands are not around your mouth. Newer research has shown that when the sound reflecting off walls is similar to the direct sound that the combined sound is actually more pleasing than the direct sound alone! So having speakers with wider dispersion is beneficial. It also determines the soundstage we hear.

There are a lot of other factors like acoustic treatments and SPL requirements where one might choose one type of speaker over another. But, as a generalization most people in average not treated rooms will prefer the sound of speakers that their off axis response is similar to their on axis response. So, the sound reflecting in their room is similar to the direct sound. In designed rooms the acoustic treatments are placed based on the dispersion of the speakers and what you want to happen with the reflections.

Sorry, for the winded response. But, so many people think that something labeled nearfield that the sound will turn to crap once you further than 2 meters. Simply not true or we would never use any bookshelf speaker to listen in our homes. Smaller speakers will not play as loud and typically not go as low. But, if you don't need loud they will be fine and whether using a big or small speakers you should be using sub(s) so you can place them for the best bass response.

 

[Ze Frog]

At 3m or even further the sound won't change much. You will hear less direct sound and more of a combination of direct and reflected sound. When you sit closer the direct sound will be more prominent.

This is true no matter the speaker, whether it is labeled nearfield or not. The further away you go the more reflections will be intermixed in what we hear. Nearfield in the pro world refers to SPL capability at a given distance and if the sound from all the drivers will be combined at that shorter listening distance. For example, if you placed a large tower speaker on a desk 1 meter from you, whichever driver(s) are nearest you would be prominent and the sound between the drivers wouldn't be properly combined. Most consumer 2 way bookshelf speakers would be labeled nearfield if they were marketed in the pro market.

Speaker design plays a role here in how the sound interacts with the room. Years ago the thought was a speaker with very narrow directivity like a horn speaker would give more direct sound when sitting further away. That proved to be wrong as even with horn speakers there still is sound outside the shape of the horn. We still hear a combined sound and that sound which is poor outside that horn is still reflecting off walls and combined with the direct sound. Try this yourself. Have someone stand to the side of you outside and talk normally and then talk with your hand cupped around your mouth like you are calling a kid to come home for dinner.

When they are to the side of you with your hands cupped they will still hear you talking. It will be reduced in volume but also it will not have the same tonal quality as when your hands are not around your mouth. Newer research has shown that when the sound reflecting off walls is similar to the direct sound that the combined sound is actually more pleasing than the direct sound alone! So having speakers with wider dispersion is beneficial. It also determines the soundstage we hear.

There are a lot of other factors like acoustic treatments and SPL requirements where one might choose one type of speaker over another. But, as a generalization most people in average not treated rooms will prefer the sound of speakers that their off axis response is similar to their on axis response. So, the sound reflecting in their room is similar to the direct sound. In designed rooms the acoustic treatments are placed based on the dispersion of the speakers and what you want to happen with the reflections.

Sorry, for the winded response. But, so many people think that something labeled nearfield that the sound will turn to crap once you further than 2 meters. Simply not true or we would never use any bookshelf speaker to listen in our homes. Smaller speakers will not play as loud and typically not go as low. But, if you don't need loud they will be fine and whether using a big or small speakers you should be using sub(s) so you can place them for the best bass response.

Exactly my way of thinking, was a bit miffed by people saying it's only good for nearfield, desk type use.

I think I might need to trial a pair first. Currently running my D.I.Y bookshelf speakers which have trounced many a more expensive shop speaker, but nowhere near as flat as the Neumann range, and other factors like distortion etc. I've given up on D.I.Y, actually becomes more addictive and more increasingly expensive, and really once it's at that stage it's a waste of money. Ideally I'd like to get rid of all my equipment and just go with a nice simple solution at which I'll stick, then spend more money on actual music as streaming really isn't for me, the whole bit rate anxiety of is it really as advertised, the whole DAC rabbit hole etc. Plus I like to physically change a CD or record, I really don't get how people want an algorithm to curate and make a playlist for them and not have to move from a seat throughout a listening session. The Neumann's are likely about the limit of future fi I can tolerate to be honest.

The fact these can do what they do in the way they do, on paper at least is just absolutely insane, doesn't make sense to buy high end brand Hi-fi gear or venture further down the D.I.Y path to me. Plus after a while it gets to the point where you really don't want to be chasing more perfection. To me, the KH range basically squash's that whole part as realistically, there can't actually be any better, and same for Genelec's and other pro monitors, it's mental.

Only reason I discounted Genelec's is for the same price near enough, the 8050B just doesn't look so good on paper and really that is a big factor at least subconsciouly.

 

[teashea]

While the speaker dominates the steady-state response above ~1kHz, the room is small in acoustical terms (large rooms begin when at least one dimension is 55ft long, one wavelength of 20Hz), and reflections have an important role to the overall character. The path length of a single reflection, conservatively, if you are in the center of your room, will be 40ft, equivalent to 36ms, well within the fusion interval of the ear. Anywhere else in the room the pathlength and time gap will be shorter.

Frequency-dependent and likely untrue anyway, even with treatment.

Tightly controlled but not necessarily narrow. Certainly not unusual for a speaker.

Irrelevant.

Uneducated conclusion.

It's fine. I would recommend a sub for bass if you can accomodate it and to think about how you will include EQ in the signal path.

@teashea has been polluting this thread with at worst useless and best partially-correct comments for a long time.

"Minimizing room influence" is the wrong goal and wrong way to think about the interactions of speakers and rooms.

I am sorry that you do not understand science or truth.

 

[mj30250]

Just to settle a few comments throughout the thread regarding listening distance, if you move your chair back 3 meters, with them still pointing at your ears, how does this effect sound in your opinion?

To me reading all the specs, these have more than enough output for such a scenario and the only real change although likely irrelevant almost at such a distance would be treble energy, especially not being super wide dispersion, which I think it what @teashea was trying to highlight. In theory I'd imagine at 3 meters distance this would be pretty minimal, and if needed an adjustment of start of where it tails off upward would require literally 1 or 2 dB to correct for such.

And also, surely using MA1 would/can correct this anyway during setup.

Unless you have unusually high SPL needs, 3m should be perfectly fine with the KH 150s, even at spirited levels. I use mine primarily for desktop listening, but my office opens up to an adjacent living room that I've sat in on many occasions (well over 12 feet distant from the speakers) with the 150s cranking away. There was no discernable strain, distortion, or tonality change whatsoever. The biggest issue in doing this is speaker positioning. I'm well outside of anything resembling an equilateral triangle when in the living room. This impacts the perception of soundstage and imaging of course, but the speakers still sound great. Add a sub (or subs) for additional headroom if required, the 150s run out of steam in the lower frequencies first, as shown here:

 

[Curvature]

I am sorry that you do not understand science or truth.

Let's see you quote some science then.

You haven't done that once when discussing any point.

 

[JustCoolin‘]

Iplan on using from 2.5 to 3 meters distance, in a room about 4.5 x 6 meters, what do you reckon to that?

I'm thinking it should be fine, it's just me anyway, so I can move nearer etc as I see fit without anyone to object.

I use mine at 2,90m, and they sound fantastic, more so with the MA-1 alignment kit.

That listening distance is well within their specs (up to 6m, Neumann says). While the „recommended“ specs go „only“ to 2,50m, that refers to the SPL you might need in a studio environment and which they will typically only deliver up to 2,50m - a measurement usually only studio monitor manufacturers provide in the first place, mind.

They don‘t sound suddenly worse at 2,60m, 3m or 3,50m.

 

[Ze Frog]

I use mine at 2,90m, and they sound fantastic, more so with the MA-1 alignment kit.

That listening distance is well within their specs (up to 6m, Neumann says). While the „recommended“ specs go „only“ to 2,50m, that refers to the SPL you might need in a studio environment and which they will typically only deliver up to 2,50m - a measurement usually only studio monitor manufacturers provide in the first place, mind.

They don‘t sound suddenly worse at 2,60m, 3m or 3,50m.

Thankyou, that's good to know.

Not planning on using them as party speakers, so I'm sure they will be more than sufficient. I've always fancied trying my hand at mixing as well, so I may even do a bit when I get a pair as I like to spend my free time doing creative stuff, good for the mind and soul. Currently my main outlet is drawing, which is pretty pointless because you draw something and stick it in a drawer never to be seen again. And then recently emulation in MFME. I'll need something to do alongside that when not D.I.Y'ing speakers anymore.

 

[Dhomo]

I am so close on pulling the trigger on a pair, which I can get new for 2299€ including shipping. And now a former collogue as well is selling is 4 months old LS60 for 3800. Looking for something for the living and room and I do not really want to integrate subs for the WAF so I am very conflicted right now. As an engineer I know the Neumanns are the better speaker, but I am not sure if the 10HZ deeper bass extension would make a difference for going with the LS60 especially when you take the roomgain into account (of which I have plenty). Listening distance of almost 4 meters is what makes me wonder if they can handle that. I do not need high spl though, more of quite listener those days. The wife wanted the ls60s until I told her that they cost significantly more. Of course the price gap is shrinking when you want to integrate a good subwoofer someday in the future. I know the KH120s really well and they worked in my old very small living room with a 12 inch closed dyi sub. God those decisions are driving me nuts. Anybody who has been in the same shoes?

 

[Pearljam5000]

I am so close on pulling the trigger on a pair, which I can get new for 2299€ including shipping. And now a former collogue as well is selling is 4 months old LS60 for 3800. Looking for something for the living and room and I do not really want to integrate subs for the WAF so I am very conflicted right now. As an engineer I know the Neumanns are the better speaker, but I am not sure if the 10HZ deeper bass extension would make a difference for going with the LS60 especially when you take the roomgain into account (of which I have plenty). Listening distance of almost 4 meters is what makes me wonder if they can handle that. I do not need high spl though, more of quite listener those days. The wife wanted the ls60s until I told her that they cost significantly more. Of course the price gap is shrinking when you want to integrate a good subwoofer someday in the future. I know the KH120s really well and they worked in my old very small living room with a 12 inch closed dyi sub. God those decisions are driving me nuts. Anybody who has been in the same shoes?

From where can you get them at thereat that price ?

 

[JustCoolin‘]

I am so close on pulling the trigger on a pair, which I can get new for 2299€ including shipping.

Wow, that's crazy. Cheapest I've seen them is for 2600,- €. I think I've paid 2.900 €.

 

[Dhomo]

From where can you get them at thereat that price ?

It uses the employee discount of a friend who has no use of his percentage and I have to use it up till next week if I want it.

 

[Ze Frog]

I'm also looking at the Genelec 8340, anyone heard this speaker and the KH150's?

I like a quite detailed sound, currently running ribbons in my D.I.Y speakers at present, and wondering if the Neumann's will have the top end clarity that I really appreciate. Plus would GLM be a better option for tailoring the sound of I take the fancy? Only despite chasing a flat FR curve as a base, I do like to adjust for certain genres. It's only one video, but some guy on YouTube seems to think the top end is a hissy mess coming from his pair of Opal's apparently. This has me second guessing as I too am a big fan of ribbons, however not in the usual way where manafacturers deliberately exaggerate the highs to say 'wow', 'look a ribbon tweeter'

I'm not really into what I'd call bright speakers, my current ribbons are implemented without the usual excess that I likely would have got with a factory built equivalent, I just like clarity of the higher registers and it's a big thing in my decision. Definitely better matching subwoofers for the cost with the Neumann's though, as if I buy one or the other I will be using subs from same company, I like everything to match, which granted is an odd way to be but it's just my way.

 

[Ze Frog]

I am so close on pulling the trigger on a pair, which I can get new for 2299€ including shipping. And now a former collogue as well is selling is 4 months old LS60 for 3800. Looking for something for the living and room and I do not really want to integrate subs for the WAF so I am very conflicted right now. As an engineer I know the Neumanns are the better speaker, but I am not sure if the 10HZ deeper bass extension would make a difference for going with the LS60 especially when you take the roomgain into account (of which I have plenty). Listening distance of almost 4 meters is what makes me wonder if they can handle that. I do not need high spl though, more of quite listener those days. The wife wanted the ls60s until I told her that they cost significantly more. Of course the price gap is shrinking when you want to integrate a good subwoofer someday in the future. I know the KH120s really well and they worked in my old very small living room with a 12 inch closed dyi sub. God those decisions are driving me nuts. Anybody who has been in the same shoes?

The Kef LS 60's do seem pretty epic, but if your friend is selling already that's probably not a good sign. That to me would make me avoid them to be honest.

 

[Dhomo]

The Kef LS 60's do seem pretty epic, but if your friend is selling already that's probably not a good sign. That to me would make me avoid them to be honest.

Well I cannot really audition them in my living room as he lives about 2 hours by car away from me. He says that he sells them because he is moving and they do not fit with his new office furniture. They are loaded and for him this is more of a gadget.

Edit: The 8040 I head have a pretty similar sound to Neumann but I EQ all my speakers so there is that. The 8040 should have a bit wider dispersion so theres that. Since they are both not that big cant you just order a pair of both and try them out? Most big sellers have nice return policies and do not care.