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Neumann KH120 II

HarmonicTHD

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aren't you bored of talking enclosure materials 24/7? Really? Is this really what you can contribute to conversations in an audio science server?

MDF bad. : (
Plastic even worse : (((
Paper drivers fragile : (
Metal dome or soft dome?!?!?
Genelec good but what about Neumann???

What matters is the output. You are like the people who pay 10k$ more on dacs because their PSU is shielded against RF and they have DisCreTe output stage. It doesn't matter what decisions a designer took inside an input-output device. (speakers, dacs, amps) As long as it performs well(and we check the output of the system for that), you do not have to care about anything else.

As long as cabinets do not resonate, it doesn't matter what material the manufacturer used. As long as a material allows complex waveguide shapes without introducing diffractions, that material can't bottleneck the performance of speakers.
Paper used in drivers is not the same with the paper you write on. "Paper" is great because it is light and a woofer has to be as light as possible to maximize efficiency of the system.
Soft Domes start behave like ring radiator drivers in high frequencies hence they start beaming very early around 6-7khz. Bad for controlled directivity.
Genelec & Neumann, both are usually great. Check the directivity index of the speakers within your budget and buy the one which has the smoothest DI and smoothest constant DI behaviour from 200hz to 20khz.

I answered all the questions you are repeating 10 times a day. Can you please move on to asking different and more importantly more performance-relevant questions about speakers? Thank you.
Don’t despair (just ignore). He does this nonsense with absolute regularity in every Neumann and Genelec thread since years. Although people have explained it over and over again, still he comes back.
 

Pearljam5000

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aren't you bored of talking enclosure materials 24/7? Really? Is this really what you can contribute to conversations in an audio science server?

MDF bad. : (
Plastic even worse : (((
Paper drivers fragile : (
Metal dome or soft dome?!?!?
Genelec good but what about Neumann???

What matters is the output. You are like the people who pay 10k$ more on dacs because their PSU is shielded against RF and they have DisCreTe output stage. It doesn't matter what decisions a designer took inside an input-output device. (speakers, dacs, amps) As long as it performs well(and we check the output of the system for that), you do not have to care about anything else.

As long as cabinets do not resonate, it doesn't matter what material the manufacturer used. As long as a material allows complex waveguide shapes without introducing additionl diffractions compared to simulations, that material can't bottleneck the performance of speakers.
Paper used in drivers is not the same with the paper you write on. "Paper" is great because it is light and a woofer has to be as light as possible to maximize efficiency of the system.
Soft Domes start behave like ring radiator drivers in high frequencies hence they start beaming very early around 6-7khz. Bad for controlled directivity.
Genelec & Neumann, both are usually great. Check the directivity index of the speakers within your budget and buy the one which has the smoothest DI and smoothest constant DI behaviour from 200hz to 20khz.

I answered all the questions you are repeating 10 times a day. Can you please move on to asking different and more importantly more performance-relevant questions about speakers? Thank you.
Dude relax
He asked a question and I was trying to help him
This automatica attack on every time i comment is something else
 

dazzler9000

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Nice summary everyone, thanks for commenting, and appreciate your detailed explanation JMF. Looks like the 120ii should be ample for my configuration.
 

Blockader

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1684754637248.png

I'll just drop it here. KH120II's phase response suggests that there might be small resonances around 2-3khz but I can't be certain until I see the waterfall or the spinorama. (Spinorama also reveals the resonances, if a peak/dip repeats its pattern in off-axis/DI and on-axis, that means it's a resonance. The reason is that resonances also change the radiation pattern of the driver). All in all, KH 120II looks like it doesn't have much resonances, so plastic was good enough for this design.
 

mj30250

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Yes, that's correct. I have a 49 inch monitor, so the speakers would be at least 50 inches apart. Yeah, I suspected the 150's would be too much, but I didn't want to spend money on the 120's and wish I'd gone bigger.
I use 150s on a desktop because I was looking to maximize extension without the need for a sub, but it sounds like the distance between them is shorter than it would be for you. Mine are 45" apart when measuring the distance between tweeter centers. At a 1 meter listening distance, obviously the further apart you place the speakers, the further away you will be from an equilateral triangle. Beyond that, I find no audible issues with the 150s at a tinge over 1 meter, particularly after calibrating them with MA 1. If you don't mind a sub, the KH 120 IIs + KH 750 will give you more placement flexibility and more extension.
 

jmf11

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One thing that I would be happy to have a feedback about, but I imagine that it is not easy, is about the similarities between:
- KH120A DSPed by the KH750,
- KH120II.

Or between KH120II+KH750 and KH120A+KH750.

I imagine that it could fill part of the gap between old and new KH120, but by how much...
 

Blockader

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One thing that I would be happy to have a feedback about, but I imagine that it is not easy, is about the similarities between:
- KH120A DSPed by the KH750,
- KH120II.

Or between KH120II+KH750 and KH120A+KH750.

I imagine that it could fill part of the gap between old and new KH120, but by how much...
37709-de-maximum-spl-at-1-m.svg
12391-en-kh120_max_spl_510.gif

KH120II has slightly better extension and output in low frequencies. This is the biggest difference in between them.
KH120II has also better controlled vertical directivity:

37720-de-vertical-directivity-plot.png
12392-en-kh120_ver_directivity_510.gif

Overall KH120II is a better design. I'd like to speculate that KH120II uses very high order digital crossovers to establish such controlled directivity around the crossover frequency and such hig order filters are not possible to implement as analog(extreme cases ignored).
 
Last edited:

dfuller

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. I'd like to speculate that KH120II uses very high order digital crossovers to establish such controlled directivity around the crossover frequency and higher order filters which are not possible to implement with analog filters(extreme cases ignored).
If it's like the kh150, they're using a 48dB/oct crossover (which is technically possible with analog active, though the phase rotation would be wild and require quite a bit of correction via all-pass filters).
 

teashea

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Thanks Teashea, I think it was your post I was referring to. I listen to all sorts of music. unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge to know how low each genre/instrument might get to.

It's a tricky one. At least if the 120's don't go low enough, there's always the KH 750, but then would the 150's be better..... Then there's always the 310's :facepalm:. I'm assuming these would be no good from a seating position of 1 metre?
You do have all three or four of those possibilities. I don't think there is a bad option among them. All would work from one meter. Check out the recommended listening distances on the Neumann website. I use my KH 150's, KH 310's and KH 120's / II's from 1.1 to 1.3 meters. Remember that all of these monitors are designed by Neumann as nearfield studio monitors. Close is good. For one thing, it minimizes the effects of room acoustics. Almost all of the sound you hear is coming directly from the monitors - and not room reflections. A lot of people do not realize this. It is a big deal.

You can see the distances of my monitors in these photos
20230515_180530.jpg
20230515_180641.jpg
20230515_180624.jpg
- including the KH 310's.
 

teashea

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37709-de-maximum-spl-at-1-m.svg
12391-en-kh120_max_spl_510.gif

KH120II has slightly better extension and output in low frequencies. This is the biggest difference in between them.
KH120II has also better controlled vertical directivity:

37720-de-vertical-directivity-plot.png
12392-en-kh120_ver_directivity_510.gif

Overall KH120II is a better design. I'd like to speculate that KH120II uses very high order digital crossovers to establish such controlled directivity around the crossover frequency and higher order filters which are not possible to implement with analog filters(extreme cases ignored).
I think you are correct regarding the important of DSP in the KH 120 II's and the KH 150's. While Neumann does what it can to maximize mechanical issues, DSP really adds a lot to control things.
 

IamJF

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It's not a metal fabric - it's a hard dome. It shows the same ultrasonic behavior as any other non-beryllium metal dome, ie breakup mode in the mid-high 20s of kHz. I believe they stick a piece of fabric or something on the dome to contain the breakup modes some...
If somebody would be enterprising enough to take that grille off the tweeter (looks like it comes off with the screws on the mounting flange?), we could know for sure what's going on.

index.php
Always thought they use Seas Tweeters ... but that doesn't look like anything Seas?

Maybe I can find time today or tomorrow - I could do measurements to 50kHz with 120, 120ii and 80.
 

J-B

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@teashea Why do you have all those different Neumann monitors in the same room? All for stereo listening. I don't get it, there's so much overlap.
(Serious question, no judgement.)
 

IamJF

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You can see the distances of my monitors in these photosView attachment 287344 - including the KH 310's.
Is this a sales room?
I always would have loved to get one of these Audient mixers - exactly what I wanted to have for studio work. But since I use Console 1 with 2 fader units I'm convinced from in the box mixing and will stick to it. The sound is finally really good of these emulations, you have full flexibility and workflow is efficient with the channel strip in hardware.
And yes - I also don't have the space in my mixing room and it would be a horrible financial decision as it's not my main job ;-)
 

teashea

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@teashea Why do you have all those different Neumann monitors in the same room? All for stereo listening. I don't get it, there's so much overlap.
(Serious question, no judgement.)
It is a legitimate question. Unlike almost all other studios, I like to use separate workstations. I do not want everything consolidated into one stations. Ie. for recording, for mixing in the box, for using a console and most recently a separate SSL equipped mixing/mastering station. So for each station I need separate monitors.

Like many studios, I usually want to have a couple sets of monitors at each station so I have a slightly different sound to use. Thus, I have so many monitors. However, I want all of the monitors to have a similar (not exactly the same) sound - a family sound. So I settled on Neumann monitors.

So, let me know if you have any additional questions.
 
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