Neumann KH120 II

[Pearljam5000]

I think a lot of people would be really unhappy if Neumann speakers suddenly sounded like Genelecs. Tastes are different. You prefer this or that. Maybe you're just more a Genelec guy.

Yes, but still Genelec improved their tweeter after many years
I would have expected the same from Neumann
It's not like it's perfect and can't be improved , nothing is

 

[thewas]

I'm comparing it to the Genelec's
Which sounds brighter and more detailed .
If you'll hear them side by side you'd understand

How many times must it be repeated that the reason for that is the different directivity with the Neumanns usually being narrower?

Yes, but still Genelec improved their tweeter after many years

Which exact models are you referring to and can you please link to a source which says so?
The Ones use a different tweeter design due to the coaxial driver, so its not that they improved some tweeter on their existing designs.

 

[Pearljam5000]

How many times must it be repeated that the reason for that is the different directivity with the Neumanns usually being narrower?


Which exact models are you referring to and can you please link to a source which says so?
The Ones use a different tweeter design due to the coaxial driver, so its not that they improved some tweeter on their existing designs.

Don't remember where I read it , but they did improve it .
Dynaudio, Focal and many other brands also upstate their tweeters , it's not that it's something rare.
So yeah after 10 years or more I'd expect some update to it.

 

[thewas]

Dynaudio, Focal and many other brands also upstate their tweeters , it's not that it's something rare.

Often such tweeter "updates" are more audiophile marketing to compensate for lack of thorough total engineering as companies like Neumann, Genelec and few others offer. Some of the finest loudspeakers in the world use the Seas DXT tweeter which costs to OEM probably less than $50...

 

[ChrisHeinonen]

All of these things that are supposedly lacking in the 120 II, like the enclosure material or lack of a new driver, cost money. For Neumann to want to invest the money into this development, it would need to have a purpose. The current tweeter design, as seen from their other speakers, is incredibly linear when paired with DSP and has no issues with output. What issue are they trying to solve for, aside from marketing it as new, by investing money into developing a new one? Having a more expensive enclosure might looks nice on paper or in photos, but in most cases having it be able to better survive falls and constant travel isn't a necessity.

All of this engineering work would cost them money, cost time, and make the resulting speakers cost more which would then make comparisons to other models worse for them. If doing so would vastly improve performance or fix an existing problem, then they would do that. But I've not seen a problem identified that would be solved for most users of these speakers, aside from aesthetics or not being new. Is there something they need to fix with these that we aren't aware of that you can point out?

 

[kemmler3D]

All of these things that are supposedly lacking in the 120 II, like the enclosure material or lack of a new driver, cost money. For Neumann to want to invest the money into this development, it would need to have a purpose. The current tweeter design, as seen from their other speakers, is incredibly linear when paired with DSP and has no issues with output. What issue are they trying to solve for, aside from marketing it as new, by investing money into developing a new one? Having a more expensive enclosure might looks nice on paper or in photos, but in most cases having it be able to better survive falls and constant travel isn't a necessity.

All of this engineering work would cost them money, cost time, and make the resulting speakers cost more which would then make comparisons to other models worse for them. If doing so would vastly improve performance or fix an existing problem, then they would do that. But I've not seen a problem identified that would be solved for most users of these speakers, aside from aesthetics or not being new. Is there something they need to fix with these that we aren't aware of that you can point out?

A good marketer can spin literally any change as something that should make "audiophiles" happy.

However, from a marketer's perspective, a product that is old, but perfect, is very hard to work with. The flip side of "don't change things without a reason" is there's nothing new to talk about.

Of course you are completely right from a product / engineering perspective. But, marketing doesn't run on rationality, fortunately or unfortunately.

 

[boxerfan88]

Is there something they need to fix with these that we aren't aware of that you can point out?

And there are people in this (and similar) thread(s) who likes to continually bash the product or component, and unable to clearly articulate what are the gap/weaknesses that needs improvement…gosh…

 

[Pearljam5000]

And there are people in this (and similar) thread(s) who likes to continually bash the product or component, and unable to clearly articulate what are the gap/weaknesses that needs improvement…gosh…

I'm not bashing anything
I'm stating a fact that other companies update their tweeters , and after 10 years or more I would have expected Neumann to do the same with their new generation of monitors .
As simple as that .

 

[Ilkless]

SOTA drivers have a much longer life cycle than the entry and mid levels. The Scanspeak Revelator was arguably SOTA up till Purifi came out. The Illuminator and Ellipticor were not clear cut upgrades on the Revelator.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

And there are people in this (and similar) thread(s) who likes to continually bash the product or component, and unable to clearly articulate what are the gap/weaknesses that needs improvement…gosh…

… and not only this thread and not even having either one of the Genelecs or Neumann‘s themselves. …

He is on my ignore list for over two years as this has been going on over and over for that long and more …

 

[Pearljam5000]

SOTA drivers have a much longer life cycle than the entry and mid levels. The Scanspeak Revelator was arguably SOTA up till Purifi came out. The Illuminator and Ellipticor were not clear cut upgrades on the Revelator.

What's SOTA more then 10 years ago is not necessarily SOTA now

 

[Ilkless]

What's SOTA more then 10 years ago is not necessarily SOTA now

The point I was making is that, SOTA drivers more than 10 years ago can still be SOTA now it often is because the product lifecycle is that long, and drivers are already a mature technology. Hence the observation that Scanspeak Revelator was only definitively outclassed after over 10 years by Purifi

 

[HarmonicTHD]

… ^^^^ …. Correct. Plus Neumann is able to produce excellent speakers as we have seen in this and other reviews (despite the alleged „older driver“) because they apply SOTA engineering and that is what counts. Not the driver, not the case material etc. (same goes for Genelec btw).

Therefore I fail to see the point in pearljams unfounded claims about drivers, materials and what else he might come up with.

 

[Grotti]

… and not only this thread and not even having either one of the Genelecs or Neumann‘s themselves. …

He is on my ignore list for over two years as this has been going on over and over for that long and more …

The ignore button! Thank you for the hint.....

 

[Pearljam5000]

.

So it took 10 years for one tweeter to outclass another one
And it's been over 10 years since Neuman released their tweeter so it makes sense, Becaue that's about the time it takes most companies to update / replace with a totally new tweeter
It's just odd to me that a brand new design and generation in general and everything has changed , woofer amps etc , and only the tweeter is the same .
Like I said , most companies update their tweeter
Focal on the new Solo6, Dynaudio with their Esotar etc ...

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Therefore I fail to see the point in pearljams unfounded claims about drivers, materials and what else he might come up with.

His points are this:
- He had KH120 that sounded dark in his ****** 3x3m shoebox room.
- Instead of investigating what was wrong in his case (room measurements etc) he sold the KH120.
- He heard Genelecs and liked them, but they are too expensive for him.

So his point is that he wants basically a cheaper Genelec and demands Neumann has to made this.
He repeats this point over and over, repeating false claims about what matters in speakers (that can't be ignored alltogether, because they may mislead others), shitting on state of the art products and their engineers, pissing on everyone who tries to be constructive and ignoring every advice and every explanation for YEARS.

 

[thecheapseats]

His points are this:
- He had KH120 that sounded dark in his ****** 3x3m shoebox room.
- Instead of investigating what was wrong in his case (room measurements etc) he sold the KH120.
- He heard Genelecs and liked them, but they are too expensive for him.

So his point is that he wants basically a cheaper Genelec and demands Neumann has to made this.
He repeats this point over and over, repeating false claims about what matters in speakers (that can't be ignored alltogether, because they may mislead others), shitting on state of the art products and their engeneers, pissing on everyone who tries to be constructive and ignoring every advice and every explanation for YEARS.

same as it ever was... same as it ever was...

 

[HarmonicTHD]

His points are this:
- He had KH120 that sounded dark in his ****** 3x3m shoebox room.
- Instead of investigating what was wrong in his case (room measurements etc) he sold the KH120.
- He heard Genelecs and liked them, but they are too expensive for him.

So his point is that he wants basically a cheaper Genelec and demands Neumann has to made this.
He repeats this point over and over, repeating false claims about what matters in speakers (that can't be ignored alltogether, because they may mislead others), shitting on state of the art products and their engeneers, pissing on everyone who tries to be constructive and ignoring every advice and every explanation for YEARS.

Yep. That’s why he is on my ignore list, but the nonsense which is spread is misleading to others as you pointed out.

Especially as the KH120 with the lower extension than the minuscule 8030, he prefers, excited some room modes in his small room. Something which should be adjusted by RoomEQ anyhow. Which again does not make the 8030 the „better“ speaker objectively.

 

[thecheapseats]

...So it took 10 years for one tweeter to outclass another one...

really?... on my fourth pair of neumann/k+h - third pair of genelecs, over many decades... I switch between them when working for a reason... and each successive newer model from either mfg has been better than the last (for what I do)... precision tools for production purposes... if some find them great for non-production work, good... if they don't, it's not because of some (or one) component in the box...

 

[Pearljam5000]

His points are this:
- He had KH120 that sounded dark in his ****** 3x3m shoebox room.
- Instead of investigating what was wrong in his case (room measurements etc) he sold the KH120.
- He heard Genelecs and liked them, but they are too expensive for him.

So his point is that he wants basically a cheaper Genelec and demands Neumann has to made this.
He repeats this point over and over, repeating false claims about what matters in speakers (that can't be ignored alltogether, because they may mislead others), shitting on state of the art products and their engineers, pissing on everyone who tries to be constructive and ignoring every advice and every explanation for YEARS.

Well no
Again for the 100th time , I just said that over 10 years is a reasonable amount of time and pretty much the average time for a driver to be updated or replaced , and gave examples of other brands doing it .
It's funny I get all of the negativity for years (unjustifiably if I may) from many members here , and not even once did I say anything negative about anyone here , so my conscience is clear