Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

[teashea]

Not better or worse, they're just different. KH150 will have greater SPL handling, so if you tried to play KH120 at those levels it obviously won't sound good going into protection.

But KH750 is -3db at 18Hz while KH150 is -3db at 39Hz. You're missing low frequency information with KH150 only.

So if KH120 could handle your SPL requirements, I would suggest that KH120 + KH750 sounds better.

If KH120 can't handle your SPL requirements, then there isn't really anything to compare.

good points. They are both terrific.

 

[gino1961]

Not better or worse, they're just different. KH150 will have greater SPL handling, so if you tried to play KH120 at those levels it obviously won't sound good going into protection.

But KH750 is -3db at 18Hz while KH150 is -3db at 39Hz. You're missing low frequency information with KH150 only.

So if KH120 could handle your SPL requirements, I would suggest that KH120 + KH750 sounds better.

If KH120 can't handle your SPL requirements, then there isn't really anything to compare.

if you apply an adequately high Hz low cut to the kh120 their distortion performance from the low cut to 20k will get better compared to a kh120 used full range
using a sub a let's say 200Hz (maybe even higher than that) low cut on the kh120 will have a positive impact
when a small speaker is asked to play back strong low frequency signals problems raise
(i. e. IMD)

 

[Sokel]

using a sub a let's say 200Hz

???
It's even questionable to use a sub at 80Hz,let alone higher.
You need a woofer for that,a very different matter.

 

[Rahan]

200 hz? not that commun for a sub.... maybe if you use a pair but not all sub can go at such a hight frequency.
Maybe a pair of genelec W371 but it will cost a lot!!

 

[gino1961]

???
It's even questionable to use a sub at 80Hz,let alone higher.
You need a woofer for that,a very different matter.

you mean that for instance the kh750 is not usable up to even 300Hz with great results in terms of low distortion? I don't understand
if they have implemented a low cut at 80 Hz they have done this for a reason
i would like to see the distortion graph with a higher cut I am sure the 150 and much more the 120 will gain many dB for the same distortion

 

[gino1961]

• Frequency response: 18 - 750 Hz (+3 dB)

Neumann KH 750 DSP

Subwoofer attivo da studio con DSP Dotato di: woofer da 10" a lunghissima escursione, Potenza: 256 W, SPL massimo: 105,0 dB, Risposta in frequenza: 18 - 750 Hz (+ 3 dB), 4 diverse modalità LFE selezionabili, Frequenza di taglio: 80 Hz, Controllo...

www.thomann.de

 

[gino1961]

200 hz? not that commun for a sub.... maybe if you use a pair but not all sub can go at such a hight frequency.

because you see it as a sub
think of a bass box instead
the 3rd way for a smaller 2 ways
if we take a good 3 way speaker like Wilson the mid cone usually a 7 inches is never used below 120 Hz for a reason
you can't ask a 5" driver to reproduce low Hz at high SPLs with low distortion
Dsp or not It's physics
And actually in speakers meant for high SPLs the mid usually is 8 inches with a robust magnet

 

[Sokel]

you mean that for instance the kh750 is not usable up to even 300Hz with great results in terms of low distortion? I don't understand
if they have implemented a low cut at 80 Hz they have done this for a reason
i would like to see the distortion graph with a higher cut I am sure the 150 and much more the 120 will gain many dB for the same distortion

Problem is that looking at the FR and THD charts we forget simple things.
Even if it's placed unerneath the mains,200Hz is well into voices,even 100Hz is into some male voices.
It's nice to think of it as a woofer but it's not.If you ever test this it's the most audible thing in audio,voices just get dirty and image is all over the place.

There's a reason for the big 3 ways and it's not that simple as throwing a sub somewhere and look at REW.
Edit:There's also a reason that Genelec has a WOOFER dedicated for this kind of set up (W371A) and no,it's not expensive for it's purpose.

 

[gino1961]

Problem is that looking at the FR and THD charts we forget simple things.
Even if it's placed unerneath the mains,200Hz is well into voices,even 100Hz is into some male voices.
It's nice to think of it as a woofer but it's not.If you ever test this it's the most audible thing in audio,voices just get dirty and image is all over the place.

There's a reason for the big 3 ways and it's not that simple as throwing a sub somewhere and look at REW.
Edit:There's also a reason that Genelec has a WOOFER dedicated for this kind of set up (W371A) and no,it's not expensive for it's purpose.

hi thank you so much for your kind and very valuable
no i did not tried I was just reading specs
i was clearly wrong and I trust your advice completely
i am always looking for short cuts
just one question then
taking a 3 ways is there an optimal range for the cut between the mid and the woofer?
i see some 3 ways coming with dome mids and other with cone mids but not bigger than 5" and therefore with cut frequency ranging from 300 to 800 Hz?

 

[Rahan]

hi thank you so much for your kind and very valuable
no i did not tried I was just reading specs
i was clearly wrong and I trust your advice completely
i am always looking for short cuts
just one question then
taking a 3 ways is there an optimal range for the cut between the mid and the woofer?
i see some 3 ways coming with dome mids and other with cone mids but not bigger than 5" and therefore with cut frequency ranging from 300 to 800 Hz?

It depends so much on your driver size and the type of speaker. For any driver the directivity will increase as the frequency does. So you can't make a big driver play high without at least directivity issues . But a small driver like mid can't play really low... It is a matter of compromise.

 

[teashea]

I have a pair of 120's with a 750 sub. I am pleased that they seem to work well together. The transition is smooth with no noticable issues in sound at the transition zone. The 120's are actually wired to the 750, which in turn is wired to my source --- and Audient iD44.

 

[gino1961]

It depends so much on your driver size and the type of speaker. For any driver the directivity will increase as the frequency does. So you can't make a big driver play high without at least directivity issues . But a small driver like mid can't play really low... It is a matter of compromise.

Hi thank you very much again but i would like to elaborate a little my thinking
I promise i will not bother anyone anymore after this Last rambling
I see that at Neumann (but also in ATC) they rely on a "dome" solution for midrange in 3 way speakers and it is perfectly fine
Other brands like Genelec, PSI and Adam they usually adopt a cone mid (as an example the pricey and great 3 way PSI Audio A25-M Studio uses a 102mm cone mid)
In the kh80/120/150 the woofer ranges from 4 to 6.5"
Why not see one of these models + the wonderful kh750 dsp as a 3 way in two pieces ?
you just need maybe an electronic crossover and some testing to find the best crossing point between the woofer and the 2 way working as satellite
And of course you have to decide where and how to place the 2 way units Not really a big deal i guess given their small size and weight
And this adds flexibility to the placement in the listening room
Imho there are some benefits to keep the big woofer separated from the other drivers
Just transport is much easier
Another one is to be able to mechanically decouple the vibrating bass cabinet from the mid and high unit that when cut higher they will have almost no vibrations by themselves to cope with
In passive speakers many designers have done this with great results
By the way you can try to place the smaller units also directly on the woofer box with some footers or spikes or other accessories that prevent the woofer cabinet vibrations from reaching the cabinet of the small speaker
I would not discount even the smaller and cheaper kh80 used with an higher high pass of course (like 400Hz or so)
Again even the manufacturers often put a low cut filter on smaller 2 way because they know how nasty can be lower Hz for their smaller units
Finish i promise Have a nice evening !

 

[Sokel]

just one question then
taking a 3 ways is there an optimal range for the cut between the mid and the woofer?
i see some 3 ways coming with dome mids and other with cone mids but not bigger than 5" and therefore with cut frequency ranging from 300 to 800 Hz?

Well made three ways often cut between 250 to even 550Hz,Genelec 1234A comes to mind with it's 420Hz xover.
But to do that there's a gazillion of matters talking into account along with compromises of course.
Size helps too.
Have a look at big mains monitors (like the one I mentioned or ATC 150,etc) to see what's usually considered to have the less compromises.
Room is a key factor too.distances along with room volume.

 

[teashea]

Hi thank you very much again but i would like to elaborate a little my thinking
I promise i will not bother anyone anymore after this Last rambling
I see that at Neumann (but also in ATC) they rely on a "dome" solution for midrange in 3 way speakers and it is perfectly fine
Other brands like Genelec, PSI and Adam they usually adopt a cone mid
Let's take this model PSI Audio A25-M Studio
The mid is a 102mm cone
In the kh80/120/150 the woofer ranges from 4 to 6.5"
Why not see one of this model + the wonderful kh750 dsp as a 3 way in two pieces ?
you just need maybe an electronic crossover and some testing to find the best crossing point between the woofer and the 2 way working as satellite
And of course you have to decide where and how to place the 2 way units Not a big deal i guess given their small size and weight
Imho there are some benefits to keep the big woofer separated from the other drivers
Just transporting is much easier
Another one is to be able to mechanically decouple the vibrating bass from the mid and high unit
In passive speakers many designers have done this with great results
You can place the smaller units also directly on the sub box with some footers or spikes or other accessories that prevent the cabinet vibrations of the woofer from reaching the cabinet of the small speaker
I would not discount even the smaller and cheaper kh80 with an higher high pass of course

The audio engineering to do this is not simple. It would be very complex; ie. don't do it.

 

[Pearljam5000]

It's somewhat funny that they mention the music types

 

[teashea]

View attachment 256838
It's somewhat funny that they mention the music types

Yes. I think it is becuase some types of music usually have less content in the low bass range. For example - pop music rarely has bass content so low.

 

[gino1961]

I have a pair of 120's with a 750 sub. I am pleased that they seem to work well together. The transition is smooth with no noticable issues in sound at the transition zone. The 120's are actually wired to the 750, which in turn is wired to my source --- and Audient iD44.


View attachment 256836

Hi this is exactly what i had in mind and glad to know that it can work
I think that it is just good that the distance from the sub and from the 2 way to the listening point are kept equal for not having any delay between bass and mid-highs
I think that also some of the better footers could allow to place the 2 way directly on the bass cabinet But this could complicate things
It is important to low cut the 2 way imho This will improve IMD performance of the 2 way

 

[Sokel]

Yes. I think it is becuase some types of music usually have less content in the low bass range. For example - pop music rarely has bass content so low.

I don't think they care much about sub 30Hz content,have a look at all the main monitors in nice pro manufacturers (and I mean the mains,like the ones in the Genelec's line).
Even the monsters reach 30Hz,no lower (except 1236A and it's 190 Kg of course).

Main Monitors - Genelec.com

Genelec Main Monitors deliver precision reference performance even at high SPLs and long listening distances. And with the power of our GLM calibration software, each one will adapt to your acoustic environment, producing mixes that translate perfectly.

www.genelec.com

 

[gino1961]

View attachment 256838
It's somewhat funny that they mention the music types

still it is always a 6.5 woofer speaker ... a 10" it will be entirely a different game I guess

 

[gino1961]

Well made three ways often cut between 250 to even 550Hz,Genelec 1234A comes to mind with it's 420Hz xover.
But to do that there's a gazillion of matters talking into account along with compromises of course.
Size helps too.
Have a look at big mains monitors (like the one I mentioned or ATC 150,etc) to see what's usually considered to have the less compromises.
Room is a key factor too.distances along with room volume.

hi thank you very much very important Again think about cutting a 3 way in two part ... bass + 2 way
Used only from 420Hz to 20kHz even the smaller (and cheaper) kh80 will shine
i am sure about this