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More wisdom from Paul McGowan

amirm

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#21
I recall that a symphony orchestra can swing a 100 dB difference between loudest and softest. I may be incorrect in this - but I am certain that the difference in dynamic range of symphonic music is HUGE.
Actual measurement of live concerts shows dynamic range in excess of 120 dB.
 

Frank Dernie

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#22
Actual measurement of live concerts shows dynamic range in excess of 120 dB.
I'd like to see a link to such measurements.
I have been recording for over 50 years and live classical music fairly often I have never seen anything approaching 120dB. 80dB in a VERY big orchestra from whispering ppp to big fffff is more what I have seen as an extreme extreme :), so I am very interested by this.
Or is it rock music from the loud playing to the gap when they finish a track? Even that seems vastly more than I would have expected from my experience.
 

Soniclife

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#23
I'd like to see a link to such measurements.
I have been recording for over 50 years and live classical music fairly often I have never seen anything approaching 120dB. 80dB in a VERY big orchestra from whispering ppp to big fffff is more what I have seen as an extreme extreme :), so I am very interested by this.
Or is it rock music from the loud playing to the gap when they finish a track? Even that seems vastly more than I would have expected from my experience.
The noise floor of every venue I go to is quite high, especially classical where the audience must save all their weekly coughs up just for the quiet bits.
 

Frank Dernie

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#25
I wanna know if their recordings are mastered with 120dB as full scale (0dBFS), as most music has 105dB as the max, yet I commonly hear that classical/orchestral is mastered at 120dB.
I set levels to absolutely guarantee no overload, I have only recorded live and there it is rare for the background to be less than 40 dB, 105dB peaks are not uncommon 120dB incredibly rare, so 80dB is as much as I have ever seen in extremis.
No idea what the background noise is like at a rock concert.
Recording studios can be very quiet but that presumably only effects the inter-track "silence" since the music doesn't afaik go as low as any background.
 

Soniclife

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#26
No idea what the background noise is like at a rock concert.
All over the place from about 60db upwards, possibly as high as 90db from the audience alone, and I don't mean things like people singing along, but uncorrelated noise. The louder the band are, the louder you have to shout to the person next to you, how else are you going to order more beer.
 

dc655321

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#29
Some say rock concerts are only noise.
And those dolts would be mistaken ;)

Here's a screenshot from a System of a Down show I was at a couple of months ago.
Not sure of the accuracy of the app on my iPhone, but it was a wee bit loud (about 25m from the stage).


2019-05-18 23.58.56.png
 

Soniclife

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#30
And those dolts would be mistaken ;)

Here's a screenshot from a System of a Down show I was at a couple of months ago.
Not sure of the accuracy of the app on my iPhone, but it was a wee bit loud (about 25m from the stage).


View attachment 30079
It looks like the app cannot work out if the average was 22 or 122 db, was it scared?
 

amirm

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#33

Frank Dernie

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#34
I have quoted a few times before. Here it is again from Journal of AES: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3829

View attachment 30083


View attachment 30082

In a follow up paper he has more data and detail: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=7948

View attachment 30085


View attachment 30084

As you see, these are at normal listening position in the hall as opposed to close to orchestra.
Well I have only rarely measured 120dB+ peaks, but this completely ignores the point that the LOWEST level one ever needs to RECORD is NEVER 0dB.
This absurdity gets repeated from time to time and I find it irritating, as I am sure you can guess :). Anybody who has made recordings knows the idea of needing a 120dB dynamic range in real music conditions is ridiculous.
 

Wombat

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#35
The title of this thread appears to be an oxymoron.
 

JJB70

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#37
It's very easy to get sucked in by Paul Mcgowan's affable and avuncular persona and see him as a thoroughly splendid chap. However, reflect on what he is doing, in this video as with most of his others he is persuading the gullible and true believers to continue spending money on stuff that they don't need based on false premises and which in many cases is outright snake oil. Maybe he believes some of it himself but I credit him with greater intelligence than to swallow a lot of the nonsense he peddles.
 

LTig

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#38
I have quoted a few times before. Here it is again from Journal of AES: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3829
[..]
In a follow up paper he has more data and detail: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=7948
[..]
As you see, these are at normal listening position in the hall as opposed to close to orchestra.
I don't dispute the maximum sound level, but I'm not convinced that it really requires 120 dB dynamic range to catch everything, neither for rock nor for classical.
  • What is the lowest sound level in very quiet studio when no one moves at all? 25 dB SPL?
  • What's the noise a musician like e.g.a violinist makes when he plays his instrument? Does it makes sense to record this noise levels?
  • If someone owns speakers which can handle this dynamic range - does he really wants to destroy his ears while listening at the original sound level?
 

Dialectic

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#39
I sure am glad ol' Uncle Paul is back with a video to pull more nonsensical statements out of his ass. I cannot imagine being the type of person to whom his ol' country salesman style appeals.

Do old audiophiles trust his down-home style? Do they break (corn)bread with him at Cracker Barrel and talk about power conditioners?

I'm sure his memoir is one heckuva read. I was actually entertained by the downhill trajectory in his little gallery of glory wall photos, visible if you scroll down: Elton John, Cat Stevens, Arnie Nudell, Harry Pearson, Herb Reichert, and so on.

[Signed by the embarrassed former owner of some Genesis loudspeakers that broke, with no replacement parts available from Genesis or anywhere else. Fortunately, Genesis speakers are sought after in China, and a guy from Flushing drove to my apartment with a wad of $100s to buy them off of me to ship to China for spares. I was briefly worried that the cash was counterfeit, but I deposited it at the bank without incident.]
 
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#40
Yet people like Paul McGowan and plenty of others continue to push the idea that you need expensive DACs and that it is some sort of innovative tech at the cutting edge, odd.
Nearly all audiophiles have thing line of thinking that expensive must mean good, Get very angry at the thought you can get good sound for under $500. I ditched one IEM reviewer because he such a asshole about sharing that same ignorant opinion and fans are even worse, since they hounded me when brought up EQ fixing issues in a IEM's FR like kids or that multi driver IEM's are just scam started by Shure/Westone and CIEM makers.
 

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