Mini-review Ascend ELX Ribbon Tower …

[Gyosa1]

Its known as the ASR welcome committee.

funny , I’ve here for a few years now !
I had no idea how entrenched some people‘s viewpoints were , though …

bk

 

[SlothRock]

Just purchased these ELX towers and Horizon Center both with the RAAL tweeter! Was deciding between these, KEF R11’s + center, Revel alternatives and Arendal as well and decided to go with the Ascend speakers. Over all, the dedication the owner has to legit measurements, the looks of the speakers and all the reviews I’ve read made it a no brainer to go this direction.

Wait time will be 2-3 weeks apparently but can’t wait for them to arrive and put them through their paces. Upgrading from my entry level HT system of Klipsch RP 600M’s and 504C center so expecting a pretty large leap!

 

[tw 2022]

funny , I’ve here for a few years now !
I had no idea how entrenched some people‘s viewpoints were , though …

bk

While i agree with the overall view they have, it is off putting..... It's the social media effect,, the overriding need to " be right " based on reinforced bias... I guess nowadays it's an accepted behavior.. The good news is: we have the option to file it in with the " who cares " part of life...

 

[Audio Science Pal]

How’s the sound ? ...

What are your thoughts after spending more time listening?

 

[Gyosa1]

What are your thoughts after spending more time listening?

Still love ‘em !


Bk

 

[PortalKeeper]

Could anyone tell me what will happen if I actually feed these speakers 400W continuous at 8 ohms when using with ear plugs for jamming session with musicians? Will they distort above 1% THD (if there is an exact number for the distortion that happens at this max power level, I’d appreciate if someone could also tell me that)?

 

[tw 2022]

Could anyone tell me what will happen if I actually feed these speakers 400W continuous at 8 ohms when using with ear plugs for jamming session with musicians? Will they distort above 1% THD (if there is an exact number for the distortion that happens at this max power level, I’d appreciate if someone could also tell me that)?

your gonna blow them up with 400w continuous , imo... others may know better.. i think any commercial tweeter / mid would go ....

 

[PortalKeeper]

your gonna blow them up with 400w continuous , imo... others may know better.. i think any commercial tweeter / mid would go ....

What is the max power then?

 

[Jim Taylor]

What is the max power then?

If you read this page from Ascend, you'll notice a spec called "max continuous power". However ... there is an asterisk next to that. If you look down to the bottom of the page, you'll notice that this is classed as "unclipped peaks."

I believe it would be best to consult Mr. Fabrikant on this matter. There are issues such as crest factor (which is related to dynamic range) and the frequency spectrum of the musical signal that may defy simple, clumped numbers.

 

[PortalKeeper]

If you read this page from Ascend, you'll notice a spec called "max continuous power". However ... there is an asterisk next to that. If you look down to the bottom of the page, you'll notice that this is classed as "unclipped peaks."

I believe it would be best to consult Mr. Fabrikant on this matter. There are issues such as crest factor (which is related to dynamic range) and the frequency spectrum of the musical signal that may defy simple, clumped numbers.

Sent sales a message about it. I’m wondering how it’s not possible to clump it up as a single number. It seems like this max power metric for a speaker still has not been solved properly in the audiophile community.

 

[tw 2022]

What is the max power then?

As stated above, talk to Dave.... 400w continuous is gonna be crazy loud, like sticking your head inside a leaf blower,I guarantee even with ear plugs it's gonna be a problem, peaks of 400 watts are gonna be a vastly different thing...the way watts work is that for every 3db increase you need to double wattage...

 

[Jim Taylor]

Sent sales a message about it. I’m wondering how it’s not possible to clump it up as a single number. It seems like this max power metric for a speaker still has not been solved properly in the audiophile community.

Thank you for contacting Ascend. I neglected to say that you could contact him here; he is a member. ( @AscendDF )

As for one universal metric, remember the old saying; "All problems have simple, easy-to-understand wrong solutions.". Or as Tom Petty said, "There ain't no easy way out."

 

[Roland68]

Sent sales a message about it. I’m wondering how it’s not possible to clump it up as a single number. It seems like this max power metric for a speaker still has not been solved properly in the audiophile community.

The technical data shows a maximum continuous output of 300 watts, which is the information you want.

With such high continuous outputs, I would rather look for speakers in the PA area.
HiFi speakers with relatively small chassis are subject to significant wear and tear with such high continuous outputs.

 

[Audio Science Pal]

Could anyone tell me what will happen if I actually feed these speakers 400W continuous at 8 ohms when using with ear plugs for jamming session with musicians? Will they distort above 1% THD (if there is an exact number for the distortion that happens at this max power level, I’d appreciate if someone could also tell me that)?

... I would rather look for speakers in the PA area.

I agree that some good quality PA speakers will be more suitable for a live band.

 

[PortalKeeper]

The technical data shows a maximum continuous output of 300 watts, which is the information you want.

With such high continuous outputs, I would rather look for speakers in the PA area.
HiFi speakers with relatively small chassis are subject to significant wear and tear with such high continuous outputs.

That’s helpful to know, it would also be helpful to know the change in SINAD vs time of use at this power level with pink noise running through it. That way, we could see at what point the heat generated over time starts screwing with the actual sound. And maybe a chart detailing how many years of use you will get out of the speaker at varying power levels. That’d be really helpful to decide what purposes you can use any arbitrary speaker for.

 

[Roland68]

It's odd that someone thinks about max power measurements on speakers. I can put 2-5W in my Ascend Sierra Towers and it gets louder than I need. You put 300W in a RAAL Tweeter for 5 minutes and it's toast.

The RAAL is designed for peaks up to 200W - not 300W and certainly not continuous...
Where do we get these crazy power ideas that tweeters handle that kind of power?

Speaker Components & DIY Audio Parts | Madisound

RAAL 70-20XR-AM Extended Range Ribbon Tweeter with amorphous metal core Transformer

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

You seem to be confusing something.
With the 300 watts, I was talking about the load on the materials used for the woofers and perhaps also the midrange speakers, and unfortunately I know that from painful experience.

You probably won't get a double-digit wattage into a tweeter that cuts off somewhere between 1.8 and 2 kHz, as long as it is protected from low frequencies according to its specification. This also applies to the RAAL.
The question of such high power in tweeters is therefore not even relevant from a physical/electrical point of view.
Tweeters usually break down due to mechanical overload/incorrect construction (breakage of the hair-thin connection wires) or direct voltage.
An electrical overload is probably very rare.

 

[AscendDF]

The RAAL is designed for peaks up to 200W - not 300W and certainly not continuous...
Where do we get these crazy power ideas that tweeters handle that kind of power?

Speaker Components & DIY Audio Parts | Madisound

RAAL 70-20XR-AM Extended Range Ribbon Tweeter with amorphous metal core Transformer

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

There seems to be some confusion about power driving the speaker and how much actual power will reach the RAAL 70-20xram, or any of the transducers.

It is important to understand that feeding our tower with 300 watts does not deliver 300 watts to the tweeter, or to any of the drivers - not even close. First off, there are significant losses in the crossover, and that power being fed to the speaker is divided and sent to the various transducers. This is what the crossover does, this is for any speaker… Typically, the tweeter will receive a small fraction of the total power being sent to a speaker.

So, for the sake of science – I took some measurements

Using an equal energy full bandwidth stimulus (white noise) At ~6.2 volts input to the speaker (which translates to approximately 6 watts of power), the voltage drop across the ribbon is 1 volt. Our 70-20xr ribbons are 6 ohms, so this translates to only 0.17 watts, or ~ 28 thousandths (2.8%) of the input wattage.

This ratio remains the same regardless of the input wattage, or at least until voice coils start to get too hot (thus increasing voice coil resistance) or crossover components become saturated.

So, if we put 300 watts into this speaker, on average – the 70-20 ribbon will receive about 8.5 watts of power.

Going back to that same 6.2 volt input, the voltage drop across the LX woofers (they are in parallel) is ~3.5v, which translates to 4 watts. Voltage drop across the mid = 1.2V (0.25 watts).

Using these ratios – with 300 watts into our ELX Tower:

Tweeter receives ~ 8.4 watts

Mid receives ~ 12.5 watts

The two bass woofers = ~200 watts

Someone would have to feed the ELX Ribbon towers a truly massive amount of power to take out the RAAL 70-20 due to overpowering it, which explains why we have never had even one customer take out a 70-20 due to too much power (woofers would go first) I think we have only ever seen 2 blown 70-20's in all the years we have been selling them in our towers. One of them was because the tower fell and landed directly on the tweeter, literally destroying the housing (I think it was due to a dog) and the other was due to massive amplifier clipping when he used the speakers outside for a party, with volume on full blast for hours. Every driver and even the crossover itself was destroyed (I saved these melted components just for posterity)

Hope you all find this info useful and that it helps clarify some things.

 

[PortalKeeper]

There seems to be some confusion about power driving the speaker and how much actual power will reach the RAAL 70-20xram, or any of the transducers.

It is important to understand that feeding our tower with 300 watts does not deliver 300 watts to the tweeter, or to any of the drivers - not even close. First off, there are significant losses in the crossover, and that power being fed to the speaker is divided and sent to the various transducers. This is what the crossover does, this is for any speaker… Typically, the tweeter will receive a small fraction of the total power being sent to a speaker.

So, for the sake of science – I took some measurements

Using an equal energy full bandwidth stimulus (white noise) At ~6.2 volts input to the speaker (which translates to approximately 6 watts of power), the voltage drop across the ribbon is 1 volt. Our 70-20xr ribbons are 6 ohms, so this translates to only 0.17 watts, or ~ 28 thousandths (2.8%) of the input wattage.

This ratio remains the same regardless of the input wattage, or at least until voice coils start to get too hot (thus increasing voice coil resistance) or crossover components become saturated.

So, if we put 300 watts into this speaker, on average – the 70-20 ribbon will receive about 8.5 watts of power.

Going back to that same 6.2 volt input, the voltage drop across the LX woofers (they are in parallel) is ~3.5v, which translates to 4 watts. Voltage drop across the mid = 1.2V (0.25 watts).

Using these ratios – with 300 watts into our ELX Tower:

Tweeter receives ~ 8.4 watts

Mid receives ~ 12.5 watts

The two bass woofers = ~200 watts

Someone would have to feed the ELX Ribbon towers a truly massive amount of power to take out the RAAL 70-20 due to overpowering it, which explains why we have never had even one customer take out a 70-20 due to too much power (woofers would go first) I think we have only ever seen 2 blown 70-20's in all the years we have been selling them in our towers. One of them was because the tower fell and landed directly on the tweeter, literally destroying the housing (I think it was due to a dog) and the other was due to massive amplifier clipping when he used the speakers outside for a party, with volume on full blast for hours. Every driver and even the crossover itself was destroyed (I saved these melted components just for posterity)

Hope you all find this info useful and that it helps clarify some things.

So does this indeed mean that putting a clean 400W of unclipped peaks into this speaker (entirely) would be okay for say 3 hours or is that pushing it?

 

[Roland68]

So does this indeed mean that putting a clean 400W of unclipped peaks into this speaker (entirely) would be okay for say 3 hours or is that pushing it?

No, that means that 300 watts is the maximum continuous load capacity for these speakers, as stated in the technical data.

Even with this power over several hours, you must expect greater wear/aging than with a lower volume, as the material is subjected to much greater stress.

If you have to constantly operate your speakers at more than 50%, or even 70%, they are incorrectly dimensioned for their intended purpose. The maximum continuous load capacity should be reserved for high levels in music and not as a continuous output.

In the end, you are responsible for the operation of your speakers. If increased wear occurs because you have operated the speakers at their performance limit for too long or too often, you have to live with it.

It is never a good idea to operate something at the performance limit in all areas. This is called under-dimensioning.

 

[PortalKeeper]

No, that means that 300 watts is the maximum continuous load capacity for these speakers, as stated in the technical data.

Even with this power over several hours, you must expect greater wear/aging than with a lower volume, as the material is subjected to much greater stress.

If you have to constantly operate your speakers at more than 50%, or even 70%, they are incorrectly dimensioned for their intended purpose. The maximum continuous load capacity should be reserved for high levels in music and not as a continuous output.

In the end, you are responsible for the operation of your speakers. If increased wear occurs because you have operated the speakers at their performance limit for too long or too often, you have to live with it.

It is never a good idea to operate something at the performance limit in all areas. This is called under-dimensioning.

Ahh okay, I didn’t look at the spec sheet but thank you for confirming. I will end up going with a PA instead for this purpose.