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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.
 
ahofer said:
The other question is why there is pressure unsighted that is absent sighted. Few seem to take the step and realize it is because it turns out to be difficult? And why, exactly, is that?
Click to expand...

Also, I often find that the people who poo-poo blind testing because of that added pressure are the same ones claiming "night and day", "not subtle at all" differences between components. Surely a tiny bit of added pressure is not enough to obscure a "night and day" difference?

IME, even speakers don't sound as different as we like to believe they do(at least ones that measure well). I've never blinded my 8351b against my 8030c, but I bet that they'd be harder to tell apart than most would assume, at least at reasonable volumes with subs handling the low end.
 
I'd guess that the vast majority of people who claim blind testing is invalid because it is stressful have never actually done one.

They just read that somewhere and decided that was a good reason to dismiss it.

if they had tried it they would realise how hard it can be to identify small but real differences, and they'd be a lot less sure of themselves and wouldn't make that argument in the first place.

These days i notice most of the claimed differences (especially with things like DACs and power cables) are with the sound-staging and imaging - ironically the two areas in which we rely most heavily on the input of the brain to 'paint a picture.'

Even so if one component really creates a narrow soundstage isolated between the speakers and the other has a sound-stage that is tall, deep and much wider than the speakers (as is often claimed) that should be a trivially easy difference to perceive blind.
 
Mart68 said:
I'd guess that the vast majority of people who claim blind testing is invalid because it is stressful have never actually done one.

They just read that somewhere and decided that was a good reason to dismiss it.

.
Click to expand...

+1

The most difficult thing for an audiophile, is to be true to himself
 
Hi

I came from the other side. Subjectivist and a hard one. I was reminded yesterday while reading a review ofa $350,000 speaker in the Absolute Sound. I, no longer read these reviews or care for them but ... I realized how much people can be invested in a hobby and the psychological blow that comes when one realizes that one is not so special: Many audiophiles, truly believe their hearing acuity to be superior to the vast majority of the population. Their choice of equipment in their opinions and that of people around them, make them special if a bit off, iconoclastic or eccentric. Traits that many people could find endearing and those who possess them, would consider as making them part of the "exceptionals" (pardon my abuse of the English language here :)). The shock of realizing that for all these years you were wrong and/or utterly ordinary, even at the bottom of the hearing pile, is jarring. The other shock is that of prices... Most can't in all sincerity fathom that a $9.oo dongle can sound undistinguishable from their last "organic" $15,000 total crap. (Reference to a "total" Digital to Analog Converter reviewed by Amir...;)) :D. I mean, how can that little box with 4 speakers in it (D&D 8C) replaces my DAC stack with the reclocker, the DAC, my preamplifier, my amplifier, my cables, stand and my 300 lbs (135 Kg) each speakers???!!??? ... It doesn't compute. Can a pair of $175 speakers with their own amplifers be better than my $10,000/pair mini monitor with no bass ( I knew that but , the midrange ...ooooh the midrange !!!!!)??? I will find an amp with better synergy to fatten the bass so I go to a tube amplifier and ... $20,000 later the LSR 308 is still superior but I can't begin to admit it ...

I think that all of us should take a deep breath and realize that most of us would not buy anything from Bose, Amirm test be damned! Let us all realize it takes a long time to wean from brainwash.

My Message to golden-eared audiophiles would be to:

Read a lot DON'T post, just yet.
Learn, learn even more
Acquire a miniDSP UMike-1 and download REW.
Learn to measure. The learning curve is steep , then again you know how to setup a turntable ...
Learn to interpret measurements and graphs.
Learn those measurements that matter.
Learn to respect DSP.
Learns that in the bass, DSP, EQ :)eek:) and subwoofers are your friends.
Understand that it will take time but it will result in a better , paradoxically much less expensive system.... ,

then listen with that new mindset and post here

Else you will be close to trolling :)
 
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Mart68 said:
I'd guess that the vast majority of people who claim blind testing is invalid because it is stressful have never actually done one.
Click to expand...
And the audiophiles that have done one have taken on an almost impossible challenge. Rather than first doing an A/BX test that they might hear a difference like maybe a 10 foot heavy speaker cable vs and 100 feet of small doorbell wire, they start with almost identical products.
 
Harmonie said:
What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.

What annoys me is that we have to repeat the same things over and over again.
Click to expand...

Then stay out of the threads with new members.

Seriously, >90% of the issues I and others witness on this board would be solved immediately if people who cannot exercise patience would simply not get involved.
 
Inner Space said:
I'm sorry you feel that way - but the responses aren't really bad natured. They're just ... weary and exasperated. Was it @sergeauckland who said it's like yet another someone coming on a fairly advanced aeronautics forum, and saying, hey guys, I can flap my arms and fly?

The "demands" for "test labs in their living rooms" are a way of saying, no, you can't flap your arms and fly, because if you tried, you'd fail.

There are plenty of other forums where you can get together and talk feverish fantasy. We're not exactly depriving anyone of their human rights in preferring mature discussion in this one rare place.
Click to expand...

Again, anyone “weary and exasperated” needs to simply not respond.

Why do members of this board feel they are entitled to treat others in this manner, which you may not perceive as disrespectful and uninviting but quite many clearly do? Why is a new member asking an innocuous question or presenting an opinion not deserving of a tiny bit of patience?

I feel like this is a very important point to discuss, and wonder where @BDWoody and @amirm might stand? I simply cannot imagine this type of reaction to new members has any place here...
 
Mart68 said:
I'd guess that the vast majority of people who claim blind testing is invalid because it is stressful have never actually done one.

They just read that somewhere and decided that was a good reason to dismiss it.

if they had tried it they would realise how hard it can be to identify small but real differences, and they'd be a lot less sure of themselves and wouldn't make that argument in the first place...
Click to expand...

The first paragraph is at odds with the third. It’s stressful precisely because the differences, if they are detectable at all, are subtle. Those who want to find a difference may feel more stress than those who don’t, but that is also a matter of prejudicial bias. Testees should always enter with the knowledge that A and B are different (even if they aren’t), so they put some effort into it.

Rick “always trying to detect the difference even when not expecting to” Denney
 
Buster Chestnut said:
Again, anyone “weary and exasperated” needs to simply not respond.

Why do members of this board feel they are entitled to treat others in this manner, which you may not perceive as disrespectful and uninviting but quite many clearly do?
Click to expand...
My guess, because they have finally found a forum they like and they don't want it to change into one like most of the others on the Internet (i.e. full of nonsense). As @Inner Space already said:
Buster Chestnut said:
There are plenty of other forums where you can get together and talk feverish fantasy. We're not exactly depriving anyone of their human rights in preferring mature discussion in this one rare place.
Click to expand...
 
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rdenney said:
The first paragraph is at odds with the third. It’s stressful precisely because the differences, if they are detectable at all, are subtle. Those who want to find a difference may feel more stress than those who don’t, but that is also a matter of prejudicial bias. Testees should always enter with the knowledge that A and B are different (even if they aren’t), so they put some effort into it.

Rick “always trying to detect the difference even when not expecting to” Denney
Click to expand...

No, the key to passing is to do a lot of practice, So you can focus in on the specific difference. If it's there then you'll hear it. If not you won't. There's no stress unless it has been brought in, - such as you've staked your reputation, or even worse, money on it.

If you are just participating out of academic interest in the outcome, there's no stress.

That's assuming it's a test for audibility. If you're just testing to see which device you prefer without the encumbrance of sighted bias, there's no stress at all and nothing specific to listen out for.
 
It's equally a problem when new members come in expressing beliefs and trying to convince us we are wrong without bothering to read or search for other posts/threads on the same subject. It's hard not to be jaded after the 1000th post telling us why wires matter and measurements don't and we just can't hear the difference for whatever reason. I think there is often too little tolerance for newcomers, but I was also brought up that it's bad manners to step into someone's house and immediately start criticizing the furniture (paint, yard...)
 
danadam said:
My guess, because they have finally found a forum they like and they don't want it to change into one like most of the others on the Internet (i.e. full of nonsense).
Click to expand...

As someone who has been a founding member of a few forums (different subject matters than this one), I will just say the forum will change as it grows; that is inevitable and is absolutely a good thing. What is not required to change are the values held by members.

And I would think the core values held in this forum include education and civility. The latter a prerequisite condition for the former.
 
Buster Chestnut said:
Why do members of this board feel they are entitled to treat others in this manner, which you may not perceive as disrespectful and uninviting but quite many clearly do? Why is a new member asking an innocuous question or presenting an opinion not deserving of a tiny bit of patience?
Click to expand...

Because there is a constant stream of them. To be frankly, if you talk shite, and someone says you are talking shite to you, that someone has done you a good service.

Buster Chestnut said:
I feel like this is a very important point to discuss, and wonder where @BDWoody and @amirm might stand? I simply cannot imagine this type of reaction to new members has any place here...
Click to expand...

It doesn't happen if they don't talk shite. Besides, amirm or BDWoody aren't benevolent gods around here. If they talk shite, which happened and will happpen again, someone will tell them. As they have done to others mind you.
 
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