Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[bigguyca]

Jesus Christ! , I consider the above stereophile link to be akin to those dodgy bomb detectors shilled to the army in Iraq/Afghanista, how do they get away with such claims? - is there no American version of our uk advertising standards authority?

The company that makes the product, CAD, is headquartered in the UK. You are in a position to take direct action if you feel that strongly.

The question in the non-UK portion of the world is why the UK inflicts this product on the rest of us.

Ground Controls | Computer Audio Design

CAD_Ground_Control.pdf (computeraudiodesign.com)

 

[sq225917]

The ASA only deals with UK circulated advertising. I've reported two hifi brands to them, in both cases the ads were withdrawn.

 

[bigguyca]

Jesus Christ! , I consider the above s(S)tereophile link to be akin to those dodgy bomb detectors shilled to the army in Iraq/Afghanista, (Afghanistan) how do they get away with such claims? - is there no American version of our uk (UK) advertising standards authority?

The ASA only deals with UK circulated advertising. I've reported two hifi brands to them, in both cases the ads were withdrawn.

Direct action would include steps such as picketing, postings in local forums, etc. Submitting complaints to a local bureaucracy is a rather passive approach when JC is involved.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The company that makes the product, CAD, is headquartered in the UK. You are in a position to take direct action if you feel that strongly.

The question in the non-UK portion of the world is why the UK inflicts this product on the rest of us.

Ground Controls | Computer Audio Design

CAD_Ground_Control.pdf (computeraudiodesign.com)

Wow, I hadn't seen this load of bollox, mind you when you see what people were paying for the Entreq boxes years ago it is unsurprising somebody else has jumped onto the bandwagon.
I did meet the CAD bloke years ago at a show when he had just started out with his DAC.

 

[Wes]

Never mind the bollox...

 

[richard12511]

I do know that when I did my double blinds tests, my heart rate increased and my stress level increased. I wonder if that would also color my test results....

I had a similar experience with my one and only electronics blind. Part of it was that I had just spent ~$4,000 on amps, and I really wanted not to fail. I knew with in the first few back and forth switches that "damn, this is gonna be really hard ". By the end I knew I was pretty much guessing, and my willpower to really try was fading. My friends who were doing it with me(and had no financial stake) were much more confident that they were hearing differences the whole time, though the ending statistics said that all of us were just guessing. Maybe their extra confidence was due in part to them being less nervous.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I had a similar experience with my one and only electronics blind. Part of it was that I had just spent ~$4,000 on amps, and I really wanted not to fail. I knew with in the first few back and forth switches that "damn, this is gonna be really hard ". By the end I knew I was pretty much guessing, and my willpower to really try was fading. My friends who were doing it with me(and had no financial stake) were much more confident that they were hearing differences the whole time, though the ending statistics said that all of us were just guessing. Maybe their extra confidence was due in part to them being less nervous.

Yup. "Don't want to fail" was the main cause of the stress.

Then, there is the "are we done yet" pressure from family members.
: )

 

[rdenney]

A low brass instrument of some sort.

That's a Sousaphone, right?

A low brass instrument of some sort.

That's a Sousaphone, right?

Close enough. And thank you for subtracting 15 minutes from my life, which always happens with YouTubes of Stewie.

Rick “not the soft pillow after all” Denney

 

[righthookmike]

I’m guessing you’ve not been here for that long. This happens multiple times a week, and lately seems even more frequent. I wasn’t replying to you, by the way, if that helps.

Not really, it should all be about me

Remarkable isn't it how furious and vindictive some people become on forums like this one? (including me in the past but I'm working on it).
Something about hiding behind the internet that makes many of us very macho and combative. But it occured to me that the feeling that you've been insulted personally by an anonymous post on an internet forum is stupid. (anonymous because most of us aren't even using our real names).
It's a lot like road rage IMO. That's also anonymous. But a few years ago I was involved in a really ugly road rage incident that rattled me so profoundly that I'm pretty sure I will never do that again.

I don't disagree but a number of the initial posts were directly to me. Then while your post doesn't tag me you are basically saying I'm stupid.....And while I have feelings I don't believe we have a right to not be offended. I'm pretty thick skinned and it seems my inability to not tell someone directly to their face what I'm thinking transfers to the keyboard. others might feel hesitant to share something we could all benefit from. I have directly benefitted from ASR sticking to measurements to a degree that makes me feel confident using the data here to make an informed selection but I think there's a subcult. I will call them,TSPLAOAR, Audio Science Review; The Self Proclaimed Leading Moral Authority On Audiophile Reviews. Can we post a sticky?

 

[pkane]

Not really, it should all be about me

What a coincidence! I'm certain that it's all about me, so you're off the hook!

 

[raistlin65]

Not really, it should all be about me

I don't disagree but a number of the initial posts were directly to me. Then while your post doesn't tag me you are basically saying I'm stupid.....And while I have feelings I don't believe we have a right to not be offended. I'm pretty thick skinned and it seems my inability to not tell someone directly to their face what I'm thinking transfers to the keyboard. others might feel hesitant to share something we could all benefit from. I have directly benefitted from ASR sticking to measurements to a degree that makes me feel confident using the data here to make an informed selection but I think there's a subcult. I will call them,TSPLAOAR, Audio Science Review; The Self Proclaimed Leading Moral Authority On Audiophile Reviews. Can we post a sticky?

There is definitely a sub cult of people who constantly gripe about how their non-objectivist views are not being respected, despite the scientific orientation of this forum.

I think it would be best if we just stick to talking about audio.

No need to answer. Just stick to talking about audio, if you agree.

 

[righthookmike]

There is definitely a sub cult of people who constantly gripe about how their non-objectivist views are not being respected, despite the scientific orientation of this forum.

I think it would be best if we just stick to talking about audio.

No need to answer. Just stick to talking about audio, if you agree.

I'm making shirts. What size do you wear?

 

[raistlin65]

I'm making shirts. What size do you wear?

I think an "ASR: Let's talk about audio science" shirt sounds like a great idea!

 

[righthookmike]

I think an "ASR: Let's talk about audio science" shirt sounds like a great idea!

Put the girl from Weird Science on there and I'll buy one

 

[David Harper]

Not really, it should all be about me

I don't disagree but a number of the initial posts were directly to me. Then while your post doesn't tag me you are basically saying I'm stupid.....And while I have feelings I don't believe we have a right to not be offended. I'm pretty thick skinned and it seems my inability to not tell someone directly to their face what I'm thinking transfers to the keyboard. others might feel hesitant to share something we could all benefit from. I have directly benefitted from ASR sticking to measurements to a degree that makes me feel confident using the data here to make an informed selection but I think there's a subcult. I will call them,TSPLAOAR, Audio Science Review; The Self Proclaimed Leading Moral Authority On Audiophile Reviews. Can we post a sticky?

Didn't mean to say you're stupid. I was speaking in general terms. I didn't have anyone in mind. And this forum is a lot more civilized than some other ones I've been on. And I've had some stupid ideas too.

 

[righthookmike]

Didn't mean to say you're stupid. I was speaking in general terms. I didn't have anyone in mind. And this forum is a lot more civilized than some other ones I've been on. And I've had some stupid ideas too.

I didn't take it seriously and I'll lighten up. this is really one of the best sites for getting meaningful insight on what each of us is trying to do. We could start a "what was your stupidest idea?" thread

 

[David Harper]

"stupidest idea" would be an interesting thread only thing is I seem to have mastered the ability to permanently block out of my head those things which I cannot bear to remember.

 

[Buster Chestnut]

I don't think that's what most of the regular members here think.

We know that sound can be measured.

We don't always know how human physical hearing/the brain will interpret it.



You sort of missed the point where I said, "Meanwhile, why what someone perceives is different than measurements would indicate can often be explained by perceptual biases." All humans are prone to perceptual biases and other cognitive biases. When it is the most likely explanation, it should be treated as such until perceptual bias can be eliminated from the listening experience from the devices being compared.



I don't think that's an accurate way to look at it for a lot of people here. Rather it's more of a desire here to overcome perceptual biases and avoid being misled by audio equipment manufacturer hype which plays into perceptual biases, and so choose equipment with the highest audible fidelity. Or, at the very least, to always acknowledge the impact of perceptual biases even when we choose to go along with them.

That being said, there are certainly some people who are into the highest measuring gear. Much like a car enthusiast might want the highest output engine, even though their driving does not take advantage of it over other engines. However, I don't that means they don't care about sound/music. It's just a preference between different gear that all achieve the same level of audio fidelity.

Thanks for a well reasoned response. Just coming back to this as life has been busy.

Here’s my main issue, and I’m not talking about a DAC “sound signature” here, I’m speaking generally...

In my opinion, there is a pretty strong bias on this particular forum to simply *reject* opinions that may not be commonly held, or perhaps not just perfectly conveyed. Add to that an inclination to attack a strawman instead of engaging in civil discourse. If you (again, general ”you”) want newcomers to see your side, don’t be a dick about it. Don’t be arrogant because you learned something before someone else.

If this is to be a *science* forum, I’d advise all members to practice the very foundation of science: open-mindedness. And maybe a sprinkle of civility and patience with others who found this forum a few months after you

 

[ahofer]

In my opinion, there is a pretty strong bias on this particular forum to simply *reject* opinions that may not be commonly held, or perhaps not just perfectly conveyed.

While in general agreement with you, and while I think many of the things you mention are common drawbacks of social media, ASR included, I differ a little on this point. The only wholesale rejection I see here is claims that are asserted as facts yet unsupported with evidence. People here are by and large OK with "I prefer", or "although I can't prove it, it sounded to me like" phrasing. They certainly do jump on "any trained listener can tell cables apart" or "there are vast and obvious differences between DACs", or my pet peeve "thousands of audiophiles hear a difference, that's my proof".

We should all have more humility in BOTH our responses AND our claims.

I just got into a familiar discussion on another forum (Harbeth User Group). I was saying that current audio showroom practices are pretty far from controlled experiments, and therefore poor at extracting audible differences. We were discussing how people tend to go for the last item auditioned, certain speaker cabinet finishes, etc., but all in the context of *influence*, not *dominant decision criterion.

A dealer responds:

So, people choose speakers based on colour and order of listening ? They totally ignore performance, sound , size, suitability for the system, suitability for the room etc ???

Absolute garbage. I'm out of this.

There's some quote I'm fishing for about public discourse like "It is impossible to express yourself clearly enough to avoid misinterpretation by some segment of the population". But better worded than that.

 

[raistlin65]

Thanks for a well reasoned response. Just coming back to this as life has been busy.

Here’s my main issue, and I’m not talking about a DAC “sound signature” here, I’m speaking generally...

In my opinion, there is a pretty strong bias on this particular forum to simply *reject* opinions that may not be commonly held, or perhaps not just perfectly conveyed.

If by "simply," you mean newcomers are replied to with the point that what they are saying is not supported by the science, then yes. But if you get involved with where people regularly help newcomers out, you'll also find they are often generous with explaining why.

Add to that an inclination to attack a strawman instead of engaging in civil discourse.

But it's OK to attack the whole forum with a strawman argument like this one???

And almost to the minute, someone posts something asinine on a ”science” forum implying:
(1) we know and can measure all there is about sound and human hearing

As I've already pointed out, that is not a commonly held belief in this forum.

If you (again, general ”you”) want newcomers to see your side, don’t be a dick about it. Don’t be arrogant because you learned something before someone else.

If this is to be a *science* forum, I’d advise all members to practice the very foundation of science: open-mindedness. And maybe a sprinkle of civility and patience with others who found this forum a few months after you

Undoubtedly, we almost all could make a little more effort toward civility. It is social media, after all, where we tend to sometimes act out more than we would in person.

However, I would suggest you do the same. Not very tactful to call your fellow forum members dicks and arrogant.