Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Jimbob54]

Then stay out of the threads with new members.

Seriously, >90% of the issues I and others witness on this board would be solved immediately if people who cannot exercise patience would simply not get involved.

What DAC and amp should I get for my new HD6XX ? I like my music balanced , with sparkly highs and musical low lows. I love that tubey sound but I cant stand distortion. I've heard very good things about Audio GD. I won't tell you what music I like, my budget, nor what devices I currently have.

 

[Racheski]

What DAC and amp should I get for my new HD6XX ? I like my music balanced , with sparkly highs and musical low lows. I love that tubey sound but I cant stand distortion. I've heard very good things about Audio GD. I won't tell you what music I like, my budget, nor what devices I currently have.

Obviously this marvel of modern engineering from Shanling. Just keep swapping the modules until you find that perfect organic, bloom-like sound.

 

[Jimbob54]

Obviously this marvel of modern engineering from Shanling. Just keep swapping the modules until you find that perfect organic, bloom-like sound.
View attachment 121822

Ha! I posted something about that beast a while ago. I only looked at the pics and assumed it was a DAP- but no! Full desktop. I hope for those that buy, it is master of all trades and no Jack.

 

[Buster Chestnut]

Reminding you that the Op in this thread is not a new member.
You aren't exactly a "new member" either.

@FrantzM resumed it well in his post #1138
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...g-at-asr-for-the-first-time.17598/post-732512

I don’t see any issue in this particular thread; the very opposite, as the discussion unfolds. And I agree the advice linked would be the ideal way to go. Honestly, it‘s probably how most ppl approach the forum.

For those that don’t, just ignore what bothers you. Literally a click of the button. I‘m not invalidating the feelings of irritation; that’s a perfectly natural response and one clearly shared by many members.

I think both sides of the issue are fully fleshed out. And I also think we can all agree that a few minor tweaks in behavior could (perhaps significantly) increase the true value of this forum.

Maybe you haven’t realized, but ASR is often the top google search when looking for audio equipment measurements. It’s even ahead of Stereophile, which has been around for decades. And while there are subjects vastly more influential on the world than hobbyist home audio equipment, I kinda feel like ignoring the growth of this site and it’s influences would be missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Buster Chestnut]

What DAC and amp should I get for my new HD6XX ? I like my music balanced , with sparkly highs and musical low lows. I love that tubey sound but I cant stand distortion. I've heard very good things about Audio GD. I won't tell you what music I like, my budget, nor what devices I currently have.

Alt +

 

[Harmonie]

I don’t see any issue in this particular thread; the very opposite, as the discussion unfolds. And I agree the advice linked would be the ideal way to go. Honestly, it‘s probably how most ppl approach the forum.

For those that don’t, just ignore what bothers you. Literally a click of the button. I‘m not invalidating the feelings of irritation; that’s a perfectly natural response and one clearly shared by many members.

I think both sides of the issue are fully fleshed out. And I also think we can all agree that a few minor tweaks in behavior could (perhaps significantly) increase the true value of this forum.

Maybe you haven’t realized, but ASR is often the top google search when looking for audio equipment measurements. It’s even ahead of Stereophile, which has been around for decades. And while there are subjects vastly more influential on the world than hobbyist home audio equipment, I kinda feel like ignoring the growth of this site and it’s influences would be missing the forest for the trees.

My point is:
speech is silver, silence is golden
Before claiming being Golden eared, be a Golden listener and reader.

I do like the long time lurker who reads and is searching for threads and posts, before just posting for the first time, ignoring the rest of what has been posted elsewhere before.

ASR members spend a lot of efforts and time.
Some should learn and appreciate others knowledge and experience before just posting without a clue what surrounds them.
It's the posture (attitude) which makes the whole difference.

 

[KSTR]

Was it @sergeauckland who said it's like yet another someone coming on a fairly advanced aeronautics forum, and saying, hey guys, I can flap my arms and fly?

No, this analogy doesn't hold. The equivalent would be "I dreamed at night that I can flap my arms and fly" -- which did happen in the dream, so a fact.
These people are reporting facts of their own personal perception (assuming there not making up the listening events they report) but the point is to repeatedly and in friendly manner explain them that facts of perception are not automatically hearing facts (those require (a) an underlying signal change and (b) a relevance of the signal change established in a DBT), whereas the perception facts don't need either.

 

[KSTR]

I think both sides of the issue are fully fleshed out. And I also think we can all agree that a few minor tweaks in behavior could (perhaps significantly) increase the true value of this forum.

Absolutely.
This forum quickly grew and has attracted some backseat drivers and some are real nags, which is unavoidable.
The point we must make here is that the bulk of this forum is not "anti" and not belittling the Golden Ears (in lack of a better term, not meant to be disparaging).

 

[TheBatsEar]

The point we must make here is that the bulk of this forum is not "anti" and not belittling the Golden Ears (in lack of a better term, not meant to be disparaging).

Why must we make that point? What compels us to make that point? What can be gained by not saying BS when someone talks BS? Has that, so far, done anything bad at all? I don't think so. In fact, i think it is a good thing, correcting those that clearly are mistaken and harshly correcting those that are full of it.

And I also think we can all agree that a few minor tweaks in behavior could (perhaps significantly) increase the true value of this forum.

What is that value that increases if we stop marking nonsense as such? Harmony? For me the value is in the differentiation between BS and not BS.

 

[KSTR]

What can be gained by not saying BS when someone talks BS?

People posting their listening impressions don't talk BS. Their "problem" is the wrong association -- indoctrinated by the audiophile media and companies -- as to what caused it. Many of the Golden Ears are indeed open to that reasoning and willing to change their mindset (see @FrantzM) but you have to give them time and you have to act thoughtful so that are not pissed off right from the start.

Further, it is of no help to reduce all the many possible technical scenarios to the "nothing really matters in the end" stance. The typical backseat driver -- people with no real knowledge or experience in technical things -- comment of "decent cables/DAC/amp never make any differences whatsoever" simply does not reflect the truth in the real world. We have enough of that already in Germany at hifi-forum.de... and we have enough of the subjectivist stuff fueled at places like open-end-music.com and aktives-hoeren.de (both are infiltrated by manufacturers, both open and under-cover).

Finally, never underestimate the actual hearing capabilities of well-trained people and that does not exclude "prototype audiophiles". It is very humbling when you actually witness in real life that a person has way better hearing of what you thought were possible and can prove it in a BT.

 

[PaulD]

Finally, never underestimate the actual hearing capabilities of well-trained people and that does not exclude "prototype audiophiles". It is very humbling when you actually witness in real life that a person has way better hearing of what you thought were possible and can prove it in a BT.

I strongly remember 20+ years ago playing with instrument computer synthesis algorithms and somone said something like, "It's very close, but there's something wrong around the 10th or 11th harmonic..." I was staggered that they could hear it then, and I'm still reporting it now. They were right! I could not hear it, but checking the maths and code proved the person right. Sadly I think this rarely happens in the audiophile world (who are mostly untrained).

 

[TheBatsEar]

Many of the Golden Ears are indeed open to that reasoning and willing to change their mindset (see @FrantzM) but you have to give them time and you have to act thoughtful so that are not pissed off right from the start.

I don't have to give anyone anything. I may give, i may help or i may be patient. But i don't have to.

If you wish to appease the Golden Ears in the hopes to eventually change their minds, do it. I think you are wrong and your mission is wrong. So is anyone that accepts opinions over facts in the name of harmony.

I say let them be pissed, either they come around by themselfs, or they move on quickly.

 

[Hector Achilleus]

I don't have to give anyone anything. I may give, i may help or i may be patient. But i don't have to.

If you wish to appease the Golden Ears in the hopes to eventually change their minds, do it. I think you are wrong and your mission is wrong. So is anyone that accepts opinions over facts in the name of harmony.

I say let them be pissed, either they come around by themselfs, or they move on quickly.

This is really wrong wrong attitude, if the point is to make science and rationality win.
By the way...I'm desperately affected by Antiaudiophilia Nervosa

 

[KSTR]

I don't have to give anyone anything. I may give, i may help or i may be patient. But i don't have to

As long as you abide to the forum rules, no problem with that.

 

[pkane]

I don't have to give anyone anything. I may give, i may help or i may be patient. But i don't have to.

If you wish to appease the Golden Ears in the hopes to eventually change their minds, do it. I think you are wrong and your mission is wrong. So is anyone that accepts opinions over facts in the name of harmony.

I say let them be pissed, either they come around by themselfs, or they move on quickly.

The mission (at least to my thinking) isn't to be a hardcore fundamentalist on either side. Debate and discussion, sometimes painfully, can lead to progress, learning, and sometimes, even to convincing. Closing off the echo chamber to all outside influences isn't a great strategy for learning and discovery, which is what I'm personally after. Sure, some people come here just to stir up trouble. Ignore those. Not everyone is like that, though.

 

[David Harper]

Confirmation bias is very powerful. They bought something expensive so it has to sound better. If it doesn't that makes them foolish and that
is not an acceptable option for them. Also it would call into question their competence as an audiophile and that also is unacceptable.
Only slightly less powerful is expectation bias. A ten thousand dollar amplifier that was praised in a review in TAS must sound better than their
two thousand dollar amp. So when they buy it it does.
Maybe this is what makes "high end" audio different from most other things. Whatever one wants to think becomes true. For them.

 

[righthookmike]

I think what gets me is assuming someone is giving an opinion because they were brainwashed by the "audiophile misinformation cabal" rigidity leads people to argue a point on emotion, which tends to close the mind. I mean, Do people see movies based on critics reviews? I spent a good portion of the night reading threads about speakers(mostly M2 horns) and comparable knockoffs. When I started to get amped about a potential candidate for consideration I try to find actual measurements from a independent source and ASR is always my first go to. Give people a little credit. Not everyone is a complete moron just because they're not a known member of a forum.

 

[TheBatsEar]

This is really wrong wrong attitude, if the point is to make science and rationality win.

But rationality has already won.

What's left is a constant stream of people that claim "There are things i can hear, but nobody can measure." I don't see value in changing their minds, nor appeasing them, nor accepting their BS as a valid opinion.

The mission (at least to my thinking) isn't to be a hardcore fundamentalist on either side.

I don't think there is a mission. Except maybe to strive for truth as best as possible. I would say mission accomplished.

Debate and discussion, sometimes painfully, can lead to progress, learning, and sometimes, even to convincing.

Then why are you not on my side? If we accept falsehoods unchallenged for the sake of harmony, discussions will get softer and softer in time, eventually it will be forbidden to tell people that they talk shit, soon after opinions and facts get interchangeable. I have seen it in the forums mentioned by KSTR. It started with a cleansing of those that spoke frankly to enhance said harmony.

They bought something expensive so it has to sound better. If it doesn't that makes them foolish and that is not an acceptable option for them.

That was me, TBH. I was one that bought Monster cables in the 90ies, and thought it made a difference . Anyway, a few years back i bought a mike and started using REW, which made me question it all.

If a numb nut such as myself can come around, everyone can. Those that obviously refuse, get zero sympathy from me. If that makes me the bad guy in some peoples eyes, they can kiss my transformers primary winding.

 

[TheBatsEar]

As long as you abide to the forum rules, no problem with that.

Am i under scrutiny? Have i done something wrong?

 

[pkane]

Then why are you not on my side? If we accept falsehoods unchallenged for the sake of harmony, discussions will get softer and softer in time, eventually it will be forbidden to tell people that they talk shit, soon after opinions and facts get interchangeable. I have seen it in the forums mentioned by KSTR. It started with a cleansing of those that spoke frankly to enhance said harmony.

I'm not against a healthy debate. I'm against the wholesale closing off discussions because someone holds a different opinion than my own, in the interest of "harmony". If you've been on some of these other forums, you may have seen me fight against exactly that same attitude from the forum owner and "golden ear" audiophiles trying to stop any discussions that go against the grain. Harmony is status quo, and to me, that's a dead-end.