Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[afinepoint]

When a member of a household spends money on product A (let's say a fancy interconnect cable), they have removed the opportunity for another household member to spend that money on product B (let's say a higher quality holiday lodging).

Opportunity cost - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Doesn't occur in my household. Each significant purchase is case by case. There are no compromises due to monetary concerns. I just bought a $300 chef's knife. There will be zero effect on our household spending. A pet had $5700 in surgery two weeks ago. Check written.

If someone can't afford a hobby there are others less expensive.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with giving advice. Advice can be very helpful. I've taken in that given here. Will I act on it? Not without validation. Popularity doesn't make true. ASR and like forums are great jumping off points. Good "advice".

I accept and act on advice from an auto service manager I deal with. Very smart guy. I accept it because his knowledge has been proven in real life. Not because he has a bunch groupies. It's all about whether it's true.

A purchase of an amplifier i made began based on advice posted on ASR. Research followed. Only then was the unit ordered.

We can make things as complicated as we want. And boy do some like to. In the end all the advice, suggestions and expert opinions in the world have to pass through the ear of the beholder. What you and I like are going to be different. Perceived differently. Prefered differently. Anything belief to the contrary is just so much verbiage.

Music is subjective. Some call Rock noise. Others can't stand the twang of country. I think it's rather arrogant to tell someone what they like and how or why is somehow wrong because of how they are listening. They aren't hearing it correctly. They are being fooled. There is something wrong with their ears. It's snobbish.

How much listening is really critical? Rock, Metal, Pop is cranked. Some bands purposely add distortion. The Beatles did it.

As I said some posts up I'd treasure having a conductor or seasoned audio engineer school me on critical listening. But somehow I feel he would say "You hear what you want to hear".

Maybe it's no more complicated than that. I'll pass on the kool-aid.

Good discussion. I do appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Sal1950]

Music is subjective. Some call Rock noise. Others can't stand the twang of country. I think it's rather arrogant to tell someone what they like and how or why is somehow wrong because of how they are listening. They aren't hearing it correctly. There is something wrong with their ears. It's snobbish. You hear what you want to hear. It's no more complicated than that. I'll pass on the kool-aid.

That's all very true, to a point.
When the discussion is about High Performance High Fidelity, those parameters are all mostly definable.

I accept and act on advice from an auto service manager I deal with. Very smart guy. I accept it because his knowledge has been proven in real life. Not because he has a bunch groupies It's all about whether it's true.

You can ask and accept many things from your auto service manager, I was one for many years. But a big part of his job is also as a salesperson so you may have to take some of his advice with a grain of salt.
OTOH, if you are discussing a High Performance auto, the required answers all just might be in the measurements.
1/4 mile ET's don't lie, skid pad g-force numbers don't lie, top end MPH don't lie, 100' braking distances don't lie, even MPG doesn't lie.
When you come to a place like ASR, Amir's (and others with like credentials) work brings to the plate honest and verifiable measurements of gear you might be interested in. These numbers don't lie either.
Now you may prefer the look of the front panel design of box A over box B, or vise versa, that's a preference item that has little real world value in the realm of performance.

 

[afinepoint]

That's all very true, to a point.
When the discussion is about High Performance High Fidelity, those parameters are all mostly definable.



You can ask and accept many things from your auto service manager, I was one for many years. But a big part of his job is also as a salesperson so you may have to take some of his advice with a grain of salt.

Not this guy. That's where credibility and expertise comes in. He doesn't try to impress. He educates. He knows. He and people like him aren't regurgitating a line they read somewhere or interpreting a graph that aren't qualified to do. I've known him for years. T

OTOH, if you are discussing a High Performance auto, the required answers all just might be in the measurements.
1/4 mile ET's don't lie, skid pad g-force numbers don't lie, top end MPH don't lie, 100' braking distances don't lie, even MPG doesn't lie.

Torque values don't lie. Ohm measurements don't lie. We can do this all day..

When you come to a place like ASR, Amir's (and others with like credentials) work brings to the plate honest and verifiable measurements of gear you might be interested in. These numbers don't lie either.

I appreciate that. I'm just asking someone giving advice to justify why another should follow it. Where are the facts supporting that opinion? Something they heard? Read "somewhere"? I seriously doubt that 100% of those giving advice have Amirs creditials. Perhaps I should better delve into bios. And for the Nth time I appreciate what Amir does but repeatedly is a cornerstone of science. Kinda like in audioSCIENCEreview. Results have to be duplicated. Otherwise it's a just a great starting point. But sometimes that's all we have.

Now you may prefer the look of the front panel design of box A over box B, or vise versa, that's a preference item that has little real world value in the realm of performance.

I agree but you oversimplify. If that is someone's MO they deserve what they get.

 

[Sal1950]

I appreciate that. I'm just asking someone giving advice to justify why another should follow it. Where are the facts supporting that opinion? Something they heard? Read "somewhere"? I seriously doubt that 100% of those giving advice have Amirs creditials.

Why are you going off into left field here? There's tons of keyboard cowboys here, just like every other site.
The ones we argue with ever day.
But the linchpin are Amir's and a few other qualified posted measurements.

I'm just asking someone giving advice to justify why another should follow it. Where are the facts supporting that opinion?

What justification do you need for the posted measurements ?
They are repeatable by anyone with the measurement gear and education to use them.
That's the point of it all, true science is supported by repeatable and verifiable results.
They are there own "facts" where opinion doesn't enter into things.
If you think there's something amiss here, post your conflicting results.

 

[afinepoint]

Why are you going off into left field here? There's tons of keyboard cowboys here, just like every other site.

Exactly. Lots of unsupported opinions and advice.

What justification do you need for the posted measurements ?

Not talking about posted results. Talking about opinions and advice. Far far more of that than data. You know that.

They are repeatable by anyone with the measurement gear and education to use them.

Agree, it's on me to find it but for verification it has to be repeated. I don't expect that here. Who has the time, expertise and equipment? But there are professional reviews out there including data. Not always but enough. That's the validation I seek.

And honestly it's generally that I'm looking around on the internet and see some product review that interests me. I read it. Try to make sense of the review and data if any and then see if Amir has reviewed it or something close in that manufacturer's line. And look for discussion here. If it jives crack on. If not I go with Amir's/ASR results and try to find another review with data. In the end if I had to, and that's yet to happen it would be ASR with the final answer.

I didn't take this thread here but in the spirit of ASR I will ask for proof of opinion when implied or stated as fact, which ironically people keep doing in this very exchange. I’ve heard others state the same regarding demanding proof. Go pounce on them or do they have too many posts/likes for you? But none of this answers the OP. Apologies Sgt. Though entertaing the back and forth has become non productive and non educating. I really do however appreciate the (good) input. I mean that sincerely.

Uncircle the wagons. This campfire has burned itself out. I'm done here and moseying on . . .

 

[Newman]

Doesn't occur in my household. Each significant purchase is case by case. There are no compromises due to monetary concerns. I just bought a $300 chef's knife. There will be zero effect on our household spending. A pet had $5700 in surgery two weeks ago. Check written.

It does occur. Only the dollar value at which it occurs varies per household. Households at which this dollar point never arrives are exceedingly lucky. It would be a poor argument to use the circumstances of the few to dismissively argue that something doesn't apply to the many.

 

[Sal1950]

Uncircle the wagons. This campfire has burned itself out. I'm done here and moseying on . . .

That's good to hear.
I'm no longer interested in adding to your thread troll.
Your wrong here on so many levels I don't have the time for you.

 

[j_j]

You know, some of this discussion about "realism" needs to go back and review my recent talk on "What doesAccuracy even mean" , https://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2024/jan2024/index.htm I believe a few people are missing some of the features of a real soundfield, at the very least.

 

[dokazi]

It does occur. Only the dollar value at which it occurs varies per household. Households at which this dollar point never arrives are exceedingly lucky. It would be a poor argument to use the circumstances of the few to dismissively argue that something doesn't apply to the many.

To what degree? Doesn't occur in mine and quite a few others I know. The argument of household budgets seems an odd discussion. And where is that point where the scales tip to impaction? Do you have data backing up your statements? I think you are using a sweeping statement to paint an (again) unsupported view.

 

[dokazi]

That's good to hear.
I'm no longer interested in adding to your thread troll.
Your wrong here on so many levels I don't have the time for you.

I don't think he's trolling. Though not popular to a very few doesn't make him wrong. At least he is being civil in the face of uncalled for rudeness. I'd say since only one or two so emotionally oppose his honest thoughts the (silent) majority don't take issue with them.

 

[dokazi]

Ok. In the bit I've read this thread is approaching off topic but since we're there I'll toss my thoughts in.


First afinepoint I have a friend that like you is a bit intense and impatient. His statements are direct and seen as challenging to some. Their reply is terse and it's off to the races. The thoughts and ideas get lost in the barrage. Have a little patience. You'll have to keep clarifying otherwise. This bloats a thread. Not all brains move at your higher speed.

Afine I understand and agree with your philosophy and thoughts. Many simply do not understand what the scientific principle is or even if they do are too wrapped in a herd mentality to consider differing viewpoints. At ASR there is definitely hero worship by a few passionate souls. Over on PS Audio it's Paul here it's Amir. Now before the pitchforks appear Amir has way way more credibility than PM. But it's hero worship non the less by some. It's everywhere.

I've read remarks like yours elsewhere and for some they kick the beehive. And yes newbies are treated more harshly across other forums if even the hint of not towing the party line is sensed. Watch how quickly and harshly they are attacked if posing a dissenting view. And yes there is also the clique appeal. Wanting to belong and garnering thumbs ups. You can spot those as they are the same ones forever giving each other the thumbs ups. Generally for stating the obvious. On some sites the worst will take the dismissive "perhaps you don't belong here" when feeling threatened. Rather than the higher adult road of "can you explain your thoughts?"

If we want to deal with cliques there are teen sites for that. Sites like ASR are not the place. I digress.

ASR is an excellent source for information. I treat technical forums like a grocery store. When I need something I go. Can't find what I'm looking for I ask. Not there next store. I don't hang out. As elsewhere you have to skip past the zealots. It's the silent ones I'd like to hear more from. Perhaps they get it.

Afine you are not attacking but questioning which is a scientific necessity. Unfortunately this can be seen as an attack on the queen bee and thus the swarming. However when the retort becomes caustic and personal all credibility is lost for that angry person and those offering "likes". The Moderators need to step in. I promtly skip the response and those posters. I haven't the time or patience for the melodramatic. I haven't seen much of that here so the moderators must be doing their jobs.

Further my advice has been disengagement when dealing with these people. To quote the last line of a famous quote "Intelligent people ignore".

The more argumentative and emotional the individual the greater the likelihood it's a 15 year old looking for attention and not a mature adult able to see and acknowledge an honest differing thought. The statements of "your opinion applies to you" and "you can't offer advice to others" in an attempt to impose their will on another and stifle opposing views. Or worse name calling - troll etc. I also found it hilarious that in the rush to scold you about advice they are giving advice. Too funny.

Kudos to the website owners for providing a platform for the free exchange of views even if it isn't appreciated by some.

Definition:

"The scientific method is an empirical method for acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. The scientific method involves careful observation coupled with rigorous scepticism, because cognitive assumptions can distort the interpretation of the observation. Scientific inquiry includes creating a hypothesis through inductive reasoning, testing it through experiments and statistical analysis, and adjusting or discarding the hypothesis based on the results." (1)

Note the word skepticism. With the reference to cognitive as how the brain manipulates information. However ask any serious scientist. Skepticism is a wide brush. Look at any scientific journal. Nothing is sacred. Especially test claims.

'Method validation' is a critical part of the process:

"Method validation data provide information which enables the comparability of results from samples analysed in different laboratories and using different methods to be assessed. Method validation is an essential part of the process of ensuring that measurement results reported to customers are correct." (2)

We are to question results. No one holds the final rights to what is true. No one. Nor without validation should their data be held as correct and certainly not absolute.

Also there is a ton of advice and statements made here (ASR) and elsewhere without references. A statement however factual sounding without a reference is worthless. It could be an opinion or a complete fabrication. People should state their creditials or source. Saying for example "as a EE I've found this to be true . . ." lends worth to the comment. Giving a source does the same. I'm sorry but we all don't know who YOU are. Especially visitors. And they shouldn't have to figure that out. If people can't or won't cite a source their "opinion" needs to be worded as such. Opinions are good for thought provoking not decision making.

Borrowing on another's view 1000s of posts or being a "master poster" doesn't make anyone an authority to be giving advice or "facts" it just means they like talking.

I appreciate people like Amir who do what they do and the many others educating. However emotions have no place in science.

Some just don't get it. The bruised egos will say it's is people like us that don't get it. Ignore them. They are guarding the hive. Bickering is a time waster. Argueing for the sake of a view, being right or slinging technical jargon without the expertise or an understanding of what or why is for small minds.

I really appreciate and enjoy ASR and like sites. As you say very good information and discussions. But for me they are a technical reference I reach for but when it comes to data but as you imply it's unvalidated. But does it have to be? Not really. Look elsewhere for that validation. Amir is tossing it out there. Do with it as you want.

You are saying corroborate the data elsewhere if you are relying on it. That's exactly how it should be done. How the scientific world does it. I'm sure Amir would agree and encourage it. If not there is indeed a concern. Your background seems highly technical and exacting. All to many run on emotion.

Apologies for the lengthy post but I wanted to touch on several points. And as I said I likely won't be monitoring to explain (again) so replies (to me) are wasted. But, for the sake of a chuckle or hopefully an intelligent response I'll try. But I can all but guarantee one or two impassioned bees will take flight.

It's just facts and opinions so what's all the arguing over? Lighten up guys and gals.


(1) Credits to Wickipedia, Mr. I Newton and the Oxford dictionary.

(2) LGCgroup

 

[Purité Audio]

Grandad flim- flam and Amir are hardly alike.
Keith

 

[dokazi]

Grandad flim- flam and Amir are hardly alike.
Keith

I agree 100 no 1000%. Apologies as a better example didn't come to mind. Once I was seriously considering their 1200 monoblocks. Instead I have an amp I'm very pleased with thanks to a member at ASR.

 

[Jim Taylor]

An opinion:

Oblique arguments, especially ones that carry the thread off-topic, are not productive. Elements of our personal lives are usually not germane. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Jim

 

[dokazi]

An opinion:

Oblique arguments, especially ones that carry the thread off-topic, are not productive. Elements of our personal lives are usually not germane. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Jim

There's no stooping it though. Imagine how short the posts would be without opinions. Talk about a one stop shopping.

That's what I'm in too many words saying. Back up your statement with something other than an opinion or vague references.

 

[Jim Taylor]

There's no stooping it though. Imagine how short the posts would be without opinions. Talk about a one stop shopping.

That's what I'm in too many words saying. Back up your statement with something other than an opinion or vague references.

I wasn't talking about opinions.

Jim

 

[Jimbob54]

My spidey senses are throbbing. Normal service will resume ASAP.

Edit- as you were

 

[dokazi]

My spidey senses are throbbing. Normal service will resume ASAP.

Edit- as you were

 

[dokazi]

I wasn't talking about opinions.

Jim

You often have to pull on personal experience otherwise it's becomes third party. Hearsay. This site as many is strewn with opinion. Some is accepted some not so. Too often its bias personal preference of who said it.

I agree with threads being derailed. This one seemed already off the tracks. I acknowledge that but felt the need to inject the data bit. It could have better fit elsewhere.

That household budget discussion was an example of off topic as are your and my comments here. See how easy it is?

As stated I find the hundreds who read and don't comment overwhelming approval in agreement rather than the (same) one or two that do.

Sorry I got sucked in. Off topic! Off topic!

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Method validation' is a critical part of the process:

"Method validation data provide information which enables the comparability of results from samples analysed in different laboratories and using different methods to be assessed. Method validation is an essential part of the process of ensuring that measurement results reported to customers are correct." (2)

This is a very important and frequently under-explained part of the scientific methodology, I'm glad you quoted it.

There have recently been serious reproducibility issues in some of the less physics-type "sciences" such as sociology, psychology etc. There have also been similar issues closer to physics, such as cold fusion and microwave space drives which don't obey the laws of thermodynamics. Reproducibility is difficult.

One of ASRs greatest strengths is when someone using their (often less expensive) measurement gear gets similar results to Amir. These help reinforce the justification for trusting many of Amir's results and for applying a rigorous approach.

Of course, my subjective experience is totally unreproducible by anybody else.