How to pair equipment pricewise?

[Bernardo_G]

Hello everyone.

I guess that many of you would think that this question is highly subjective, but I'll ask it anyway, with the hope of getting some wisdom from you all.

For all of us who are starting to assemble our audio systems, how to choose and buy equipment, according to price and performance? I've heard people saying that pairing an entry level amplifier with top-notch speakers is a waste of money since the amp will not bring the adequate signal for the speakers to shine; conversely, a top-notch amplifier with entry level speakers will be restrained and they will not allow the amplifier to "flex all its muscle". How about streamers, DACs, phono preamps, etc?

Is there any recommended guide on price that allows to select target equipment? I mean, if I have a preamp in the range of $900-$1K and a power amp in the range of $1K-$1.5K (that means $2 to $2.5K for the combo), is a DAC in the region of $1K a good match, or a bit too much, or simply overkill? How about a streamer? How much would you consider reasonable to spend to pair it with a system in that price range?

I´m aware that there are many factors to consider i.e. synergy, performance, snake-oil factor, and so on, but I'd appreciate a little of your own personal experience in order to learn.

Thanks!

 

[VMAT4]

You can't go by price. Learn the specs and choose your electronics accordingly considering the features you want.

 

[boxerfan88]

System budget allocation: (personal view)
60% speakers
35% electronics (incl. source & DAC)
5% others (cables, rack)

^ room treatment not included yet

 

[xanalog]

Welcome aboard to ASR, @Bernardo_G,

Price-matching is a null argument at the current time. Even if it was not; you'd have a better argument, if you added the weight of the equipment to the price, so that nobody can reply that:

"You should not judge audio hardware by price!"

imo: You are trying to treat matching-hardware as if you were at a dating site?

 

[kemmler3D]

You can't forget price entirely, but it is not a guide to performance. I don't mean it's not a good guide, I mean it's not a guide at all once you get past the very lowest-priced stuff.

The rough answer to your actual question is this:

For passive speakers, depending on your needs, spend 70-80% on speakers, 20-25% on amp (could be as low as 5-10% for bookshelves), 5-10% on DAC (at most.) Dac should never cost more than $1K and you need a good reason to spend more than $150 or so.

For active speakers, unless you have a specific reason, spend 100% of the budget on the speakers and find a DAC in your closet to drive the speakers.

More specifically, figure out your budget first, then find speakers that fit the budget and your objectives best. Within that budget you'll need to find an amp that puts out enough power to hit the SPL you want in your room. Spending more than you need on an amp or DAC doesn't improve the sound.

A long time ago, an amp and source (tape, vinyl) would have been noticeable limiting factors on sound quality. Today, the limiting factor is pretty much always the speakers. (leaving aside discussion of room.)

Also, you mentioned synergy... AFAIK synergy is a concept from the 50s-70s when output impedance of amps could be high, and would cause frequency response from the speakers to change significantly. This could become beneficial if that ended up correcting the performance of the speaker by accident, hence "synergy".

This isn't really the case for amps anymore, so "synergy" is a concept that got bastardized as a way to sell snake oil, i.e. cables or whatever are said to be "bright" and so you pair them with a dark speaker. In reality synergy is 99.99% imagination in today's market.

To give some concrete examples of retail prices from my own setups:

Living Room: Speakers: LS60 + 2x KC62 ~ $6K+ Source: WiiM Pro ~$150

Office: Speakers: Genelec 8030 + 2x BIC F12 ~ $2300, source: Topping DX5 Lite ~$300 (and only because I wanted XLR output and got carried away with the SINAD measurements)

As you can see, top-heavy on the speakers.

 

[DVDdoug]

For all of us who are starting to assemble our audio systems, how to choose and buy equipment, according to price and performance? I've heard people saying that pairing an entry level amplifier with top-notch speakers is a waste of money since the amp will not bring the adequate signal for the speakers to shine;

Speakers are almost EVERYTHING as long as you have enough amplifier power to go loud enough. I have an entry AVR with huge "killer" DIY speakers.

Most electronics is better than human hearing unless you over-drive an amplifier into clipping (distortion). Or ALL analog electronics generate SOME noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). There are only 3 "sound quality" characteristics with electronics: Noise, distortion, and frequency response. Frequency response and distortion are almost always better than human hearing unless you over-drive an amplifier (or other electronics) into distortion.

With speakers and room acoustics it gets more complicated but frequency response is the main thing.

Audiophoolery discusses the REAL characteristics of sound quality and that should help you ignore all of the nonsense you'll read.

Of course tone controls, EQ, or room correction can help with "imperfect" speakers, rooms, and recordings or to tweak the sound to your taste.

The only time I've heard a difference or defect from a "DAC" it was a soundcard that made noise when the hard drive was accessed. I never head anything wrong with the DAC that came in my 1st CD player 40-years ago, and I've never needed/wanted a stand-along DAC.

 

[hex168]

I'll take a shot at it; I think this is an easy one. For each type of equipment, a certain level of expenditure can get you "transparency," that is, spending more will not let it sound any better to human hearing. For a DAC, this is achievable for less than $100. You can choose to spend more and gain usability features or a nicer appearance, but it cannot be audibly more accurate. Of course, at any price level, you can buy lousy products. Stick to products reviewed here and you will know.

Similar story for streamers, but there may be more usability factors you would like to pay for.

Amplifiers are a little more complicated. You can buy a completely transparent amplifier for $100. It may or may not have enough power for the speakers you want, to play them as loud as you want, as far away from them as you want to listen to them in your room.

I will ignore turntables and cartridges because they do not achieve transparency. Pay what you want for whatever coloration you like (I admit I am guilty of enjoying that sometimes).

Speakers are (much) more complicated. There are speakers with few audible errors for under $1000 a pair (Look at reviews here and at Erin's Audio Corner). However, they will be limited as far as how loud they can get and how low they go. There are also matters of pure preference for which there are no objective answers (yet), such as wide or narrow directivity, monopole or dipole, line array or (what's the opposite of a line array, anyway? I'd say point source except ordinary speakers are not point sources) something else. You need to determine your desired listening level and the distance to the speaker. That combined with the speaker sensitivity will tell you how much amplifier power you need to achieve your goal. For a reasonable listening distance of 6 to 9 feet and if you do not listen quite loudly, you could reasonably drive a typical $5000 a pair speaker with a $100 amplifier. If you need 500 watts for your listening level and distance, that's not going to work for you.
Amp power needed calculator:

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English (US)

www.crownaudio.com

 

[xanalog]

For passive speakers, depending on your needs, spend 70-80% on speakers, 20-25% on amp

Heyyyyyyy, wait a minute!
I only spent 12.73% of my speakers' price, on my soon-to-be-delivered replacement amp.
Does that mean I should replace my speakers with a cheaper pair???

 

[Ken1951]

Just an example from my setup. Speakers (Paradigm Signature S8 V1) $9000/pr; Yamaha AVR ~~ $900; Adcom GFA-555 ~~~ $600. This doesn't count the center channel or SW. But as others have said put your money in speakers and just make sure you have adequate power for their use, and good power these days is inexpensive. My system sounds great even if many would pooh-pooh the use of an AVR and an "ancient" power amp combo.

 

[Carlton80@0]

The fact of the matter is that you to have an actual aural Experience. All of these forums, websites or Tube videos and books will lead you to the system that will suit your needs. It can turn out to be long journey in which you may learn of how something performs on an analyzer or what one may say oh how this or that sounds the best the worst or somewhere in between.

Start with music that really connects with you. Take into consideration the Room in which you wish to place your sound system. The room is so often overlooked, even though it has a huge impact on the illusion. The digital age doesn’t really help with the experience of something that is meant to be experienced. Life can be short, so if the personal enjoyment of music playback is your goal then you have to get out and experience it for yourself if at all possible.

Final thoughts is to consider the used market.

 

[spiral scratch]

You might want to consider some sort of room eq capacity in your set up that can come included in an integrated amp or a stand alone unit if you're going separates. That doesn't mean room treatments, like wall panels, but actual electronic eq of some sort. Get the best speakers you can afford, the prices on the other hardware have come down considerably and as others have said don't really reflect the quality or performance. That being said some gear has design elements and features that may make it more enjoyable for you to use, i.e.- well thought out user interface, nice finish, solid feel to controls, ease of use, etc.

 

[AaronJ]

I don't think it's fair to allocate percentages to specific components. I'm at approximately 45% speakers & subs, 20% turntable, 25% integrated amp & DSP, and 10% for everything else (DAC/streamer, tuner, CD player, cabling). This is based on a combination of retail pricing for current components and aftermarket pricing for vintage components. I placed a very high emphasis on the components I interact with like the turntable and amp. I don't think there is anything "appropriate" about the percentages. It's all about providing good value.

 

[JeremyFife]

Definitely no simple answer (so I'll have a go anyway!). Start by finding speakers that you like and are in budget - they should really take up most of the budget, but it is up to you. With the money you have left, can you find an amplifier with enough power and the features you want? Then, do you have enough left over for transparent electronics (DAC, Streamer) with the features you want? If you've run out of money at this point, choose cheaper speakers and start again! Amps and DACs are available cheaply now.

If you want to add a turntable, then all bets are off, just try not to overspend

 

[Bernardo_G]

System budget allocation: (personal view)
60% speakers
35% electronics (incl. source & DAC)
5% others (cables, rack)

Good starting point; thank you @boxerfan88!!

For passive speakers, depending on your needs, spend 70-80% on speakers, 20-25% on amp (could be as low as 5-10% for bookshelves), 5-10% on DAC (at most.) Dac should never cost more than $1K and you need a good reason to spend more than $150 or so.

Thank you @kemmler3D About the DAC, I currently have a Schiit Modi (latest generation) and to my ears it sound very nice, so I wonder if buying a fancier one would yield any real benefit.

..."synergy" is a concept that got bastardized as a way to sell snake oil, i.e. cables or whatever are said to be "bright" and so you pair them with a dark speaker. In reality synergy is 99.99% imagination in today's market.

Good point!!

Living Room: Speakers: LS60 + 2x KC62 ~ $6K+ Source: WiiM Pro ~$150

Office: Speakers: Genelec 8030 + 2x BIC F12 ~ $2300, source: Topping DX5 Lite ~$300 (and only because I wanted XLR output and got carried away with the SINAD measurements)

As you can see, top-heavy on the speakers.

Man, that's great information, really; you've opened my mind regarding what's possible in audio these days, if you're not being subject to "traditional" brands and names. It's impressive how far the newcomer companies have come in terms of price/performance ratios.

Speakers are almost EVERYTHING as long as you have enough amplifier power to go loud enough..

Thank you @DVDdoug; I'm seeing a general consensus here that speakers are where the most of your money should be spent. Makes sense, really.

...turntables and cartridges because they do not achieve transparency. Pay what you want for whatever coloration you like (I admit I am guilty of enjoying that sometimes).

+1

Just an example from my setup. Speakers (Paradigm Signature S8 V1) $9000/pr; Yamaha AVR ~~ $900; Adcom GFA-555 ~~~ $600.

Thank you @Ken1951; that's the exactly the kind of examples that I was hoping from you, guys!!!

Final thoughts is to consider the used market.

Good point @Carlton80@0 !! For many years I've bought A LOT of pre-owned gear for my guitar setup (amps, pedals, guitars, etc) with great results, but for some reason I started with a "new or nothing" approach for my home audio; maybe it's time to reconsider.

...some gear has design elements and features that may make it more enjoyable for you to use, i.e.- well thought out user interface, nice finish, solid feel to controls, ease of use, etc.

Very valid points as well!! Sometimes we're guilty of spending a bit more than needed, just because of great looks or smart design.

If you want to add a turntable, then all bets are off, just try not to overspend

Just my thoughts, @JeremyFife. I've got a heavily upgraded Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (around $1200 after all mods), and I'm pretty satisfied, so no need to pursue any further.

 

[xanalog]

@Bernardo_G,
You do know that you are now committed to reveal us your decisions when you've made them.
Take your time (you don't want to end up here), because 'we' expect demand wise choices.

 

[kemmler3D]

About the DAC, I currently have a Schiit Modi (latest generation) and to my ears it sound very nice, so I wonder if buying a fancier one would yield any real benefit.

Nope, that's a good DAC, so unless you need different features, you can stick with it.

DACs and other sources are not supposed to affect the sound one way or the other. Good ones actually achieve this, so there's no point in moving from one good DAC to another. Once you pass that quality threshold it's more about getting the connections you want, remotes, built-in DSP, etc.

Man, that's great information, really; you've opened my mind regarding what's possible in audio these days, if you're not being subject to "traditional" brands and names. It's impressive how far the newcomer companies have come in terms of price/performance ratios.

Totally! I should also note that I put retail prices for my setup, but in reality I bought most of it secondhand or at least as a floor model from a dealer. I think the only thing I bought purely new was the Topping DAC.

I've bought a ton of gear second-hand, and only once did I get a lemon, I bought a NAD 2200 but it turned out to be faulty... luckily the guy took it back.

 

[HalSF]

It’s liberating to abandon the idea that hi-fi pricing is reliably and consistently and systematically aligned with value and sound quality.

It’s *crucial* to reject the audiophile system of believing that great sound quality has an expensive minimum threshold, and that above that threshold you can trust sound quality to improve as the prices increase, and that the best gear is the most expensive, independent of measured performance.

These proposed rules about matching components according to price levels and assigning savvy percentages — this much per cent of total system cost for speakers, that much for amps, this much for wire, that much for players, etc. — tend to be dangerously compromised and muddied by the fallacies above.

Doing this kind of price-to-quality indexing and nominal percentage breakdowns is very appealing and hard to resist and imposes a certain kind of comforting commonsensical order amid the uncertainty and stress of shopping and buying, but proceed with extreme caution.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

 

[kemmler3D]

It’s liberating to abandon the idea that hi-fi pricing is reliably and consistently and systematically aligned with value and sound quality.

It’s *crucial* to reject the audiophile system of believing that great sound quality has an expensive minimum threshold, and that above that threshold you can trust sound quality to improve as the prices increase, and that the best gear is the most expensive, independent of measured performance.

These proposed rules about matching components according to price levels and assigning savvy percentages — this much per cent of total system cost for speakers, that much for amps, this much for wire, that much for players, etc. — tend to be dangerously compromised and muddied by the fallacies above.

Doing this kind of price-to-quality indexing and nominal percentage breakdowns is very appealing and hard to resist and imposes a certain kind of comforting commonsensical order amid the uncertainty and stress of shopping and buying, but proceed with extreme caution.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

You're totally right that giving prescriptive percentages-of-budget are problematic, even when you're trying to save the reader money. I put percentages in my post to give some sense of what I think the minimum spend is for competent electronics, but that could easily get someone to overspend on those depending on their actual total budget.

To bastardize Einstein a bit, "Transparent DACs and amps should be purchased as cheaply as possible, but no cheaper."

So I'd revise my recommendation. The overall goal is to spend as much as you can on speakers and no more than you need to on transparent electronics. This could look like 50% on speakers if you're going for a true budget setup, or 98% on speakers if you have a massive budget and still avoid overspending on amp / DAC / streamer.

 

[Salt]

Any discussion like ' what price of one component defines the price of the other ones' is obsolete, we should think. But threads like these unobscure an other aspect.
But it is as is: DAC is solved, Amplification (almost) solved, what remains is loudspeakers and the environment (to be solved, individually).

 

[obsessive9119]

As another, less expensive example, I have
KEF LS50 + SVS SB1000 ($2200)
Fosi ZA3 ($150)
WiiM Pro Plus ($220)