Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Newman]

I'm confused. Who are you addressing here? Me, killdozzer, the car guy, or Hooper?

It shouldn‘t be confusing: my post is a response to the post above it unless I pull a quote down to indicate it is responding to an earlier post. Easy. IIRC some forums used to recommend not quoting unnecessarily if one’s post simply flows from the post immediately above.

 

[Galliardist]

It's a good question. But it leads to another question: Can gear, that's made to measure good, sound bad?

Simple! Just select items that don't interface together well and then set the speakers up poorly in a totally unsuitable room.

 

[Hammeredklavier]

One exception are Nimbus, who claim to use the edit to save a special preformance, not to creat one.

S.

Crikey, Nimbus! That's a blast from the past!

I'm not fond of their sound engineering. It was one of the worst examples of a peculiarly British 'audiophile' fad in the late '80s, and 90s, of seeming to believe that the acoustics of empty concert halls were more important than the actual performance. One of may favourite performances of the Bartok Violin Concertos by Gerhart Hetzel was thus massacred. It sounded like the orchestra was at the bottom of a lift shaft and the soloist was 2cm from the microphone! Lots of that lovely audiophile echo though.

 

[fpitas]

Acting as a magnifying glass to our ears? No?

Oh sure. Uh huh. I'm taking notes here.

 

[fpitas]

Right, so slight possible alterations in a DACs signal though small to your measurements, is still amplfied to the same volume of the song, so the slight changes could become audible. The amp is amplying the DAC's signal, bit by bit right?

Care to give insight behind your sarcasm? Or do you just want to be unbearable?

I'll remain deeply skeptical. But don't mind me. I'm sure everyone else is in complete agreement with you.

 

[fpitas]

if this is even relevant for when choosing DACs.

I'd say no. But I've been sullied by engineering knowledge. Soon though, I'll burn my books of math and engineering and join the subjectivists!

 

[DonR]

I'd definitely say you people are much more reminiscent of the goofball 'engi' moles, but i also agree with your subconscious, you people are the unruly children in the image.


(Regarding good DACs) Well, you could analyse every little bit of the waveform of a song if you want, to spot the differences between DACs, and/or test it with your ears, to make sure it doesn't sound slightly grainy/harsh or whatever. Your ears could make that life easier. You could compare DAC outputs, you could find slight differences? This may add up to tonality change to the song slightly, especially so if you've got a good amp and speakers with emi dealt with, regarding songs you listen to all the time, this could make the difference to our ears. For every slight change to a waveform, it may add up. It depends on how much the changes are of course.

I at least will read an audio audition review on a DAC, just in case there are a lot of confident responses saying the same thing about it. I regard the measurements and ears, both with a grain of salt. Simple. You want to check all your bases before making a purchase. I do. I will do a car analogy, I can look at all the measurements of a car, but I still want to test drive it to see how exactly every bit of that car means to me when driving it, testing how all those components act together, i.e., all those (if they're there) little alterations in the signals between the DACs.

The amplifier is basically amplfying all the tiny possible alterations from the DAC right? Acting as a magnifying glass to our ears? No?

DACs can be measured using instrumentation that is orders of magnitude more sensitive than our hearing which is subject to not only the frailties of biology but to the further processing under the influence of bias in our brains. Just about any decent DAC made in the last 20 years is transparent to the vast majority of the population. Inconsistencies are usually because of poor or deliberately badly designed output filters.

 

[Purité Audio]

I'd say no. But I've been sullied by engineering knowledge. Soon though, I'll burn my books of math and engineering and join the subjectivists!

Subjectivists have far more fun.
Keith

 

[DonR]

Subjectivists have far more fun.
Keith

Reality is a dreary existence.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes those happy hours I spent as a youth comparing interconnects without a care in the world, the expectation of the arrival of a new dac the repeated playing of the same five tracks all of that has been taken from me by that pesky ASR.
Keith

 

[fpitas]

all of that has been taken from me by that pesky ASR.

Amir has a lot to answer for.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I'd definitely say you people are much more reminiscent of the goofball 'engi' moles, but i also agree with your subconscious, you people are the unruly children in the image.


(Regarding good DACs) Well, you could analyse every little bit of the waveform of a song if you want, to spot the differences between DACs, and/or test it with your ears, to make sure it doesn't sound slightly grainy/harsh or whatever. Your ears could make that life easier. You could compare DAC outputs, you could find slight differences? This may add up to tonality change to the song slightly, especially so if you've got a good amp and speakers with emi dealt with, regarding songs you listen to all the time, this could make the difference to our ears. For every slight change to a waveform, it may add up. It depends on how much the changes are of course.

I at least will read an audio audition review on a DAC, just in case there are a lot of confident responses saying the same thing about it. I regard the measurements and ears, both with a grain of salt. Simple. You want to check all your bases before making a purchase. I do. I will do a car analogy, I can look at all the measurements of a car, but I still want to test drive it to see how exactly every bit of that car means to me when driving it, testing how all those components act together, i.e., all those (if they're there) little alterations in the signals between the DACs.

The amplifier is basically amplfying all the tiny possible alterations from the DAC right? Acting as a magnifying glass to our ears? No?

No

 

[Robin L]

I'd definitely say you people are much more reminiscent of the goofball 'engi' moles, but i also agree with your subconscious, you people are the unruly children in the image.


(Regarding good DACs) Well, you could analyse every little bit of the waveform of a song if you want, to spot the differences between DACs, and/or test it with your ears, to make sure it doesn't sound slightly grainy/harsh or whatever. Your ears could make that life easier. You could compare DAC outputs, you could find slight differences? This may add up to tonality change to the song slightly, especially so if you've got a good amp and speakers with emi dealt with, regarding songs you listen to all the time, this could make the difference to our ears. For every slight change to a waveform, it may add up. It depends on how much the changes are of course.

I at least will read an audio audition review on a DAC, just in case there are a lot of confident responses saying the same thing about it. I regard the measurements and ears, both with a grain of salt. Simple. You want to check all your bases before making a purchase. I do. I will do a car analogy, I can look at all the measurements of a car, but I still want to test drive it to see how exactly every bit of that car means to me when driving it, testing how all those components act together, i.e., all those (if they're there) little alterations in the signals between the DACs.

The amplifier is basically amplfying all the tiny possible alterations from the DAC right? Acting as a magnifying glass to our ears? No?

No. The distortion and noise of typical DACs is below the threshold of hearing. There's plenty of budget DACs that have lower levels of noise and distortion than all but a few amplifiers. And there's lots of DACs and amplifiers that have noise and distortion lower than the threshold of audibility. Transducers - speakers, headphones and phono cartridges - all have higher levels of distortion than amps or DACs. If you want to improve sound, look to speakers and room treatments, perhaps careful positioning of speakers. Don't expect the DAC to affect the sound.

 

[krabapple]

I'd definitely say you people are much more reminiscent of the goofball 'engi' moles, but i also agree with your subconscious, you people are the unruly children in the image.

Hello, Joined: Nov 13, 2023

(Regarding good DACs) Well, you could analyse every little bit of the waveform of a song if you want, to spot the differences between DACs, and/or test it with your ears, to make sure it doesn't sound slightly grainy/harsh or whatever. Your ears could make that life easier. You could compare DAC outputs, you could find slight differences? This may add up to tonality change to the song slightly, especially so if you've got a good amp and speakers with emi dealt with, regarding songs you listen to all the time, this could make the difference to our ears. For every slight change to a waveform, it may add up. It depends on how much the changes are of course.

It also depends very much on the listening conditions....i.e., sighted or 'blind' ...of course.

I at least will read an audio audition review on a DAC, just in case there are a lot of confident responses saying the same thing about it. I regard the measurements and ears, both with a grain of salt. Simple. You want to check all your bases before making a purchase. I do. I will do a car analogy, I can look at all the measurements of a car, but I still want to test drive it to see how exactly every bit of that car means to me when driving it, testing how all those components act together, i.e., all those (if they're there) little alterations in the signals between the DACs.

The amplifier is basically amplfying all the tiny possible alterations from the DAC right? Acting as a magnifying glass to our ears? No?

These 'tiny possible alterations' that you're worried about hearing are.....what, in your experience?

 

[DonR]

I've browsed these forums a lot on lots of subjects. Hello.



Unwanted noise? Poor modulation? I'm just imagining what alterations could happen. Why do they still make new DACs (aside from snake oilers wanting money), I assume they are always perfecting something right?

Mostly to keep the product line fresh and update the feature list. Digital to analog conversion is largely a solved problem for audio.

 

[Robin L]

Why do they still make new DACs (aside from snake oilers wanting money), I assume they are always perfecting something right?

Because that's what audio companies always do. DACs were a solved issue a long time ago, now it's either bragging rights for specs or new, improved snake oil. But, as it is, if one knows what one is doing one can find a DAC that performs better than one can hear for less than $100. My Topping E 30, bought a few years ago, performs better than I can hear. And that has been upgraded to a second iteration, with marginally better specs. But people won't be able to hear the difference.

 

[Newman]

Well I might imagine wrong, but I assume if a DAC has tiny changes throughout a song's waveform, and the amplifier is amplifying this, then the tiny changes could become more audible.

More the opposite. Because the amplifier will have its own ‘tiny changes’, bigger than the DACs tiny changes, and swamping them.

I do appreciate your logic: for example, if you turn up the volume on a device far enough, noise starts to be heard…noise that was inaudible when the volume was down. Correct. And so will tiny changes to the music be audible….in super, super-quiet passages of music.

But there’s the catch. Music isn’t recorded at such low levels: it is recorded as far away from that noise and distortion as possible. So, if a DAC has -100 dB SINAD, and you can start to hear the noise in your room when it is played at a sound level in the room of 50 dB SPL, but then you turn on the music, it will be coming out of your speakers at 150 dB SPL. Ouch.

Plus, when you use an amplifier with -80 dB SINAD to turn up the sound level above, then the amplifier’s own noise will be 70 dB SPL in the room, and drown out the 50 dB SPL of the DAC.

cheers

 

[Eric Natural]

Hurrah for this website of(audio)sanity !
Peace

 

[antcollinet]

Well I might imagine wrong, but I assume if a DAC has tiny changes throughout a song's waveform, and the amplifier is amplifying this, then the tiny changes could become more audible. Like blowing up a balloon, to discover the finer texture on the surface of a balloon.

If such differences in a signal output between proper DACs is beyond our ears when this signal is amplified, then fair enough. I don't know enough on engineering. I just assumed different DACs would end up changing the signal a little bit. Part of that assuming came from the fact there's many of them on the market, and I thought there must be a reason for that, maybe better revision on the engineering or something. Ignoring snake oil that is.

I'm going to assume you are posting in good faith, and answer in that vein.

An average ish performing DAC my have Sinad of around 100dB. That means any "tiny changes" (noise and distortion) are 100dB below the level of the music.

What is 100dB? It is 0.00001 - yes correct - that is 100,000 times smaller than the music. Lets visualise that with a visual comparison.

Take a penny. I think the British penny is similar in thickness to a USAnian one, or a Euro cent - slightly less than 2mm. Lets just call it 2mm for simplicity.

Make a stack of them 100,000 pennies tall. That stack is now 200m high. About the height of the One Court Square building in long island city (see image)

Now imagine you are at the base of that building looking up. You want to see the whole thing without moving your head or eyes. You walk away, looking back until you can. Stand and look at the building taking in the hight - no eye moving remember.

Now imagine the stack of pennies the same height. Looking at it from the same distance. Can you see the individual pennies?

Thinking of it more from an audio point of view. The quietest sound a human can hear is 0dB. The nose floor in a fairly quiet room is already 20 to 30dB. A typical listening level for music is about 75 to 80dB. 90dB is pretty loud. If you were listening at 100dB - maybe the level of a loud nightclub, you'd be putting your hearing at risk after about 15 minutes.

But even when listening at 100dB dangerous levels, the noise and distortion is 100dB lower - at 0dB - the quietest sound a human can hear. Can you even hear your room noise floor (30dB) when playing at 75dB? Of course not, so no chance at 100dB - and yet the noise/distortion from this DAC is still 30dB below (31 times smaller) the noise floor of the room. The music is now so loud you can't even hear someone shouting next to you - let alone the sound of a small feather landing on the back of a kitten.

So, no - the "tiny changes" introduced by the DAC are not audible even when amplified - first because even when amplified they are lower than we can hear, but also because the music is also amplified and would mask them even if they were 100 x bigger.

Oh - and this is just an average DAC. The best DACs measured here are more than 10x better than this average one. So the stack of pennies is now 2km (1 1/4 miles) + high. Or 10 of these buildings one on top of the other.

 

[krabapple]

I've browsed these forums a lot on lots of subjects. Hello.



Unwanted noise? Poor modulation/compiling of data? I'm just imagining what alterations could happen,

Indeed you are.

I don't know details on electronic engineering. Why do they still make new DACs (aside from snake oilers or companies getting the itch for more cash), I assume they are always perfecting something?

So, you haven't browsed very much here.

No? Aside from wondering if they're still perfecting DACs, my system sounds a bit harsh is all, I'm just wanting to get to the bottom of it.

Speakers, room acoustics, or your amp isn't powerful enough for the levels you prefer with the speakers you like. It's not rocket science. 99.9% sure as hell it isn't the DAC.

And I've read the other replies, thank you.

Maybe re-read them.


Also, acknowledge the fact that sighted comparison won't quite do.