Measurements of Sonore microRendu Streamer

[amirm]

Thanks Michael. I am going to let the results soak a bit and then will update the first post and and a summary at the end.

 

[John Kenny]

Actually no. As I mentioned we are dealing with two completely different audio stacks in the measurements that I provided. Specifically, the default Windows player is going through the Windows audio stack with its dither component in place.

I re-tested, this time with Foobar2000 and Asio driver for the ifi DAC. Here are the results:

View attachment 2129

Green is ifi DAC connected to USB as before, using Windows audio stack.

Yellow again is the same old data with the data path now being through microRendu with my lab power supply.

The new graph in teal is using foobar 2000 using ASIO interface to talk to ifi DAC. The noise floor is now dropped by the same amount because of the removal of dither in Windows audio stack. And performance is now identical to using microRendu which likewise doesn't dither (it is a pass through device).

So in summary, microRendu has not improved anything when using it with my lab power supply. The output of the DAC is the same with or without microRendu. Using ifi Power supplied as provided by Sonore, substantially degraded performance however, as I showed before.

Objectively then, based on this data, microRendu has only potential to do harm. Again, I welcome other comments and data to the contrary.

Ok, I find it difficult to keep up with your many different configurations, statements & opinions on this device so forgive me if I misinterpreted your graphs!.

I see now that you put this 10-15dB difference in "noise floor" level to be due to the Windows media stack! Is the Windows Media stack not bit perfect or are you suggesting that dither is responsible for this level difference or some other reason?

 

[amirm]

Is the Windows Media stack not bit perfect or are you suggesting that dither is responsible for this level difference or some other reason?

No it is not.

Windows media stack is designed to serve multiple applications concurrently outputting to one sound device. As such, it allows mixing of sample rates, and individual app volume controls. The way this is done is by changing all app sound sources into a fixed format (set in Sound Control Panel). In between, all samples are converted to floating point and the back out to fixed point with dither.

The above is the reason people resort to using WSAPI and ASIO to get a direct, bit-accurate path to the sound card. Standard media players in Windows do not do that so you have to be mindful of the extra processing.

 

[cjf]

I just did that test with my laptop that has hundreds of processes running, a ton of open tabs to web sites doing whatever they are doing and as I showed in my last measurement, it did not improve with addition of microRendu.

Theories are good. We just need to add data to back them .

As an fyi in case you are not aware, when using DLNA Mode the mRendu is the device doing the decoding of the media files. The "claimed" benefit of a device operating in NAA Mode is that it supposed to result in less activity from the hardware which in turn is said to result in better sound and a less noisy environment.

I am not trying to pick a fight here and am very interested in your results but I think the final nail in the coffin would be to try and debunk this NAA theory by showing there is or isn't any benefit in using that approach.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Actually no. As I mentioned we are dealing with two completely different audio stacks in the measurements that I provided. Specifically, the default Windows player is going through the Windows audio stack with its dither component in place.

I re-tested, this time with Foobar2000 and Asio driver for the ifi DAC. Here are the results:

View attachment 2129

Green is ifi DAC connected to USB as before, using Windows audio stack.

Yellow again is the same old data with the data path now being through microRendu with my lab power supply.

The new graph in teal is using foobar 2000 using ASIO interface to talk to ifi DAC. The noise floor is now dropped by the same amount because of the removal of dither in Windows audio stack. And performance is now identical to using microRendu which likewise doesn't dither (it is a pass through device).

So in summary, microRendu has not improved anything when using it with my lab power supply. The output of the DAC is the same with or without microRendu. Using ifi Power supplied as provided by Sonore, substantially degraded performance however, as I showed before.

Objectively then, based on this data, microRendu has only potential to do harm. Again, I welcome other comments and data to the contrary.

Many thanks, Amir, once again for a terrific job. I can only begin to understand the intricacies of trying to measure things like this via multiple scenarios. It takes great skill and care to try to get it right.

There are always critics, but none of them seem to even be able to make measurements themselves. It would seem they would just rather not believe in measurements. They seem to abhor them. But, they always try to find some other basis, often just nitpicking, to try to discredit the measurement efforts, which they will not accept because they would rather just go on believing what they wish to believe and to "trust only their ears".

In fairness, my read of the measured outcome is that the microRendu (or microRevenue, as dallasjustice dubs it) can function effectively in the task of extending the length of a USB cable link beyond normally specified limits by using Ethernet cable and conversion to USB. That is provided it is used with a quality power supply, meaning not the one supplied with it or not the audiophile "upgrade" they also offer. Used that way, it appears to be totally transparent and benign, just like it should be. I have no idea what alternatives there might be or how well they perform. I am not in the market for such a device.

But, it highlights the whole power supply game, which is rampant in computer audio. And, beliefs, rather than measurements, are the key to that. Clearly, PS's can make a difference. The only problem is knowing which one actually makes a positive difference with a specific device beyond mere claims or beliefs. It would seem even the device manufacturer is clueless, which casts doubt on whether they made comprehensive measurements of audio performance themselves.

Somewhere in the distance, I hear John Swenson laughing once again on his way to the bank.

 

[dallasjustice]

If you want to use the micro-rendoo in NAA mode, you can download a fully functional trial version of HQplayer. The only limitation with the trial is that runs for 30 minutes until you have to relaunch the app in Windows.

Here's the current beta version:
http://www.signalyst.com/beta-install.html

 

[John Kenny]

But, it highlights the whole power supply game, which is rampant in computer audio. And, beliefs, rather than measurements, are the key to that. Clearly, PS's can make a difference. The only problem is knowing which one actually makes a positive difference with a specific device beyond mere claims or beliefs. It would seem even the device manufacturer is clueless, which casts doubt on whether they made comprehensive measurements of audio performance themselves.

Just wondering if you have any measurements that back up your highlighted statement? In other words a PS that makes s difference in computer audio?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Just wondering if you have any measurements that back up your highlighted statement? In other words a PS that makes s difference in computer audio?

Maybe I misread Amir's measurements, but I thought it was only his lab PS that provided the "ideal" performance. Neither iFi PS did, I thought. Am I wrong?

 

[Thomas savage]

Maybe I misread Amir's measurements, but I thought it was only his lab PS that provided the "ideal" performance. Neither iFi PS did, I thought. Am I wrong?

No, there is a clear difference between the power supplies, how audible that is is another matter.

It's my belief JK was being some what Disingenuous ...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This is what ifi says about the power supply I used which Sonore sold me as a package with microRendu:

"The central characteristic of iFi is in pursuit of the zenith in audio performance: it leaves no stone unturned. Well, the all new iPOWER is an exemplary example of this. Despite the fact that the iFi Ultra-Low Noise AC/DC adapter was exceptionally quiet and elevated the iUSB and iPhono to punch way beyond their respective categories, the all new iPower is even quieter, up to 10x quieter in fact."

Reads like an audiophile power supply to me. What do you think it is?


Some things are basic so yes, if you go to every tire store with a bald tire, they will tell you it needs replacement. Likewise, power line filtering and not letting 60 Hz get through is a fundamental basic.

"iPower is an exemplary example," he he.

Tim

 

[cjf]

Amirm, I'm curious how many Volts you fed the mRendu while using your Lab grade supply? I feeding mine with 7volts. I've seen reports that the iFi's 9v can make the unit run hot.

If you want more suggestions for tests maybe try differing voltages in the ranges of Min/Mid/Max supported values to see if these change the graphs at all?

 

[amirm]

Amirm, I'm curious how many Volts you fed the mRendu while using your Lab grade supply?

I measured the iFi and it was 9.3 volts (unloaded) so I set my lab supply exactly to the same voltage. And yes, it was cooking with iFi. Not burning the hands but pretty hot.

I will test for voltage sensitivity when I get a chance. What is it rated for as far as supply range?

 

[RayDunzl]

6-9v

User Guide

 

[bibo01]

Unfortunately I see that opposite parties are still bickering at each other

Amir, thanks for your measurements.
If I may say so, you rushed your test publication which required some further more in depth analysis before going online.
Anyhow, it is interesting to see how much this device depends on a low noise power supply and how an iFi ps is not.
All tests, however, have not told us much about how a microRendu affects music at DAC output. Indeed, I do not agree with your statement in your initial post that "it is the sound waves that your amplifier will send to the speakers to be heard." You are still measuring static signals here which is not what a DAC receives at playback.
We remain on the periphery of things, for now.

 

[RayDunzl]

If I may say so, you rushed your test publication which required some further more in depth analysis before going online.

That's what Peer Review is for (prior to publication).

Look what happened when we peered at it (publicly).

 

[bibo01]

That's what Peer Review is for (prior to publication).

Look what happened when we peered at it (publicly).

An 8dB discrepancy required no peers to be questioned.

 

[firedog]

Actually no. As I mentioned we are dealing with two completely different audio stacks in the measurements that I provided. Specifically, the default Windows player is going through the Windows audio stack with its dither component in place.

I re-tested, this time with Foobar2000 and Asio driver for the ifi DAC. Here are the results:

View attachment 2129

Green is ifi DAC connected to USB as before, using Windows audio stack.

Yellow again is the same old data with the data path now being through microRendu with my lab power supply.

The new graph in teal is using foobar 2000 using ASIO interface to talk to ifi DAC. The noise floor is now dropped by the same amount because of the removal of dither in Windows audio stack. And performance is now identical to using microRendu which likewise doesn't dither (it is a pass through device).

So in summary, microRendu has not improved anything when using it with my lab power supply. The output of the DAC is the same with or without microRendu. Using ifi Power supplied as provided by Sonore, substantially degraded performance however, as I showed before.

Objectively then, based on this data, microRendu has only potential to do harm. Again, I welcome other comments and data to the contrary.

Not at all. Your measurements lead to a conclusion that the mR does no harm, but that the iFi supply adds noise. With a low noise power supply, the mR improves the situation.

It's not really fair to skewer Sonore over the iFi. They're selling it, and quoting the manufacturers claims. Complaints should be to iFi. Like most vendors, I doubt Sonore measures the iFi.
They also sell the mR without any PS, so it's not like they're hoisting the iFi (or any other PS) on buyers. BTW, Sonore strongly recommends not running the mR with any PS outside the 6-9V recommended range.
I agree with the above poster that it would be useful to test the mR in NAA mode to see if the results are the same or different.

 

[Geardaddy]

Like any experiment, providing a control would be helpful.

Testing in NAA mode is also relevant since its part of the Rendu's raison d'être....

 

[amirm]

With a low noise power supply, the mR improves the situation.

Not in my measurements. With a lab supply, it merely matched the performance of ifi DAC connected to the USB port of my laptop:

The bottom two graphs are with USB connection to the DAC versus through microRendu with my lab supply. There is zero improvement in system fidelity.

This is what Sonore says about the device:

"What makes the microRendu different from a typical computer music server is that it's a purpose built audiophile device. The problem with computer music servers is that they all rely on mass produced motherboards designed for general purpose computing and are built to the lowest possible price point. The microRendu solves this problem by removing the consumer grade computer peripherals and optimizing power supplies where necessary. The microRendu has been specifically built for processing USB audio perfectly. You can also combine the microRendu with an audiophile grade linear power supply to achieve the lowest possible noise floor. "

None of this has materialized in my test. Mass market laptop computer board with tons of system activity did as well as microRendu. No "optimization of power supply" was seen either. Indeed the opposite is shown: that microRendu is sensitive to power supply noise and passes so much of it to the DAC as to lower its performance by some 30 db.

So no situation was improved with this device. At best it does nothing. At worse, it adds noise and distortion. That is what this data shows.

 

[amirm]

It's not really fair to skewer Sonore over the iFi. They're selling it, and quoting the manufacturers claims. Complaints should be to iFi. Like most vendors, I doubt Sonore measures the iFi.

No. The complaints need to be addressed to Sonore which recommends the iFi power supply:

"RECOMMENDED POWER SUPPLIES
iFi iPower power supply - 9VDC"

And the only one they sell:

Yet this combination serves to add up to 30 db of power supply noise to the DAC. This was the precise reason I bought this supply so that there would be no question of why I used the XYZ supply. I used what they say is recommended for it yet it does not back their statements of fidelity.

They should confirm my results and remove this recommendation. And show data for the rest. It shouldn't be our job to go and buy/test these supplies on their behalf.