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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

jkess114

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1 - Why on earth are they doing that?
2 - What then are they using the DAW for?
1- because some of the very finest audio gear has an extremely desireable sound that is not replicable from plug ins and because 99% of music is digital nowadays, even stuff that lands on vinyl.

2- Music is digital now. Delivery formats are digital. Some die hard fans of AAA will keep everything on Tape in the studio and make sure at least some of their distribution will make it to vinyl, but even those folks are also making digital masters as well since they don't want to limit their audience to 'people who like their music with record players'.

Back to 1... DMG make some of the finest plug-ins available for pretty much any normal audio processing you want, at least at the mastering stage - EQ, compression, Mutli-Band compression, De-Essing, Limiting, etc. When designing plug-ins, there are many choices that are settled on by the designer and not made available to the end user in the GUI. DMG has made pretty much any variable that has ever been created and more, available in the GUI and they've done a remarkable job executing the code. In sum, for pro users and in this case I am talking about mastering engineers since this level of minutiae would be a waste of time for many creatives, you will find DMG plug-ins in the plug-in collection in many mastering engineer's toolboxes. When I was mastering I owned most of the talked about mastering-grade plug-ins and these were my favorite, almost all of the time. In spite of how nearly-perfect these are, the main EQ they made was not as musical sounding as running out of the DAW via DAC into my main analog EQ (Knif Eksa) and back into to my DAW via an ADC. Even the filtering options on that EQ made me halt HPF'ing and LPF'ing via plug-ins (and this includes FIR with an absurdly long window). For some, Sontec EQ's occupy this level musicality, for others Maselec, GML, Barry Porter EQ's. And this is often in conjunction with analog compressors that again have a musical sound and feel that has not yet been replicated via plug-ins.

During the pandemic I was splitting my time between Iceland and the US. My kids were with their mother in Iceland since life was screwed up for everyone in the US and they could have a normal life in Iceland (hence our decision to move them all over there). My mastering studio was in Brooklyn. It would have been amazing if I could have done everything in the digital domain as I wouldn't have had to shuttle back and forth (7 weeks in the US, 2-3 in Iceland) during the pandemic, but the quality is not the same and I was not able to turn in the same level of work working digitally.


I am interested to hear some of these top end DAC's. One of the best things about the Mytek's, which I settled on after listening to loopback tests from other companies offerings, was the ability to utilize various filtering options within DAC chip (Manhattan II uses Sabre 9038). This has an absolutely huge impact on the presentation of the music. I also know that designing gear with specs in mind can sometimes create a less pleasurable listening experience. Some of the most highly coveted audio gear of all time has comparatively poor specs; anyone who has ever heard someone sing into a lovely example of a U47, C12, M49, etc will testify that compared to modern mics, these deliver more seductive and involving tone and emotional pleasure than any microphone with specs besting these by a mile. The phase shift of a Pultec EQP and sound of the Peerless 217D transformer, again many engineers who have used one will say a digital EQ with vastly better specs does not sound as good (and there are plugins that will curve match analog EQ's). You can crank up negative feedback in an amplifier design but rarely does the listening experience continue to improve as the spec's get better and better.

I owned and ran a commercial studio in Brooklyn for 12 years. In that time I chased down a lot of ideas on audio, as audio was my life and the need to understand was primal. I was curious at one point why the reissue LA2A compressors did not sound like the coveted vintage versions and complained to my audio guru and tech, so he brought over his AP2500 to dig around because it was a fun question for him to try and help answer. I had amassed a small collection of various transformers used in old LA2A's and we found that the reissue input iron was a large departure from the original HA100x's. While they were supposed to be part for part recreations and the transformers were supposed to be recreations, the input iron wasn't even made with the same lamination type and thusly yielded a very different sounding compressor (it sounded good but without the mojo of the originals). HA100x's are great sounding transformers and the company that was remaking them was not even close (Magnetika). That was 20 something years ago so maybe that has changed by now.

Having been part of a lot of ABX testing in the pursuit of refining audio gear it is clear that specs are not everything. They are useful, and in some cases the best way of understanding why something doesn't sound good or something does. It's nice that some of the highly rated DAC's on here aren't so expensive; at some point I will try one of them with the Sabre 9038 and compare. There are various ways of implementing the chip so comparing to the Manhattan II will be a comparison of that and the analog stage inside. I think that'll be a fun test.


I am largely out of the music biz. I was very tired of it when I stopped about two years ago and moved my hobby to my main occupation, I keep a modest production setup in the mezzanine of my shop and will get around to picking and listening to one.

There is a lot of separating fools from their money, more so in the HiFi world, but also in the studio universe. In some cases vintage gear has become so absurdly priced that while it may sound better in some respect or another, it's not worth lusting after by anyone without a trust fund. And, great records can absolutely be made a couple of SM57's and not much else. I like the extreme efforts executed here in the pursuit of pulling the veil back on the wizard behind the curtain. My life in the pursuit of audio nirvana was a pretty deep one, much deeper than most who don't get into commercial studio ownership and I am hesitant to draw expectations of audio quality on specs alone.
 

Newman

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It is certainly interesting that mastering engineers are doing such A/D palaver, but in a different sense is not news or a big revelation. Audio engineers are not exempt from all the perceptual misattribution errors that are attributed to 'the common audiophile'. They have as much to learn as anyone about the science behind perception...if they want to.

I am not, of course, referring to sound effect generators: their job is to insert specific sonic qualities, so the musicians and audio pros are bound to develop their preferences and run with them. All good! Well, up to a point. I would wager that many are not so rigorous about testing their preferences, and simply 'run with their biases' and 'hear their biases'. Opinions like 'not as musical sounding'? Yeah, I would like to see that passing a scientific level of scrutiny. Occasionally they will pass, no doubt, but highly likely that many preferences would prove to be 'somewhat illusory'. Differentiation is one thing, but consistent and worthwhile preference is a different test.

And when it comes to 'pass through' electronics, like amps and A/D-D/A converters, picking them for their sound is almost certainly folly. Well, folly to attribute it to the sound waves.
 

bodhi

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if measurements were the holy grail it would be very easy ..everybody would simply produce the same product and the only thing that would differ would be the look and feel of the product...obviously this makes no sense...

Obviously. If we think that everybody can produce perfectly measuring products with prices that make them viable in market.

Why don't every car manufacturer just build models that go from 0-100 in three seconds, are easy to drive, areextremely comfortable, fit family of 8, consume minimal fuel (electricity)?
 

voodooless

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if measurements were the holy grail it would be very easy ..everybody would simply produce the same product and the only thing that would differ would be the look and feel of the product...obviously this makes no sense...
In a rational world, lots of things would not exist, yet in ours, they do, like your argument...
straw-man-proposal-mckinsey-toolshero.jpg
 
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IAtaman

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if measurements were the holy grail it would be very easy ..everybody would simply produce the same product and the only thing that would differ would be the look and feel of the product...obviously this makes no sense...
Obviously. If only there was a name for those common oddities..
 

BDWoody

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One of the best things about the Mytek's, which I settled on after listening to loopback tests from other companies offerings, was the ability to utilize various filtering options within DAC chip

Mytek Bridge II Roon Core DAC Streamer USB Filter Measurement.png


I can see how useful that would be. :rolleyes:
 

BDWoody

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I was pitching with a Manhattan II and the filters work on that.

You can see how someone could be disappointed though, right? If that's such a big deal, seems funny that your highly regarded manufacturer made such a blunder.

Shouldn't that alone disqualify this box in your eyes?
 

allmanfan

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Obviously. If we think that everybody can produce perfectly measuring products with prices that make them viable in market.

Why don't every car manufacturer just build models that go from 0-100 in three seconds, are easy to drive, areextremely comfortable, fit family of 8, consume minimal fuel (electricity)?
because it costs money to build such cars..a 200 dollar hP will not magically sound as good as an expensive headphone because it measures to some subjective holy grail just as a DAC or amp will not....
 

voodooless

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because it costs money to build such cars..a 200 dollar hP will not magically sound as good as an expensive headphone because it measures to some subjective holy grail just as a DAC or amp will not....
Why is price a factor in audio? If this site shows anything, it is that there is very little correlation between price and performance.
 

Basic Channel

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because it costs money to build such cars..a 200 dollar hP will not magically sound as good as an expensive headphone because it measures to some subjective holy grail just as a DAC or amp will not....

I’m not sure a headphone requires the same money or has as many variables as a car. A planar headphone build requires some magnets and a membrane. It’s mostly expertise and testing.

Unless it’s housing is made out of something incredibly fancy or required extensive testing, there’s no reason it needs to cost more than 200 dollars.
 

DLS79

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Why is price a factor in audio? If this site shows anything, it is that there is very little correlation between price and performance.

Some people like to equate price with quality! The whole it's more expensive, so it must be better crowd (the ones that unethical sales people love).
 

bodhi

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because it costs money to build such cars..a 200 dollar hP will not magically sound as good as an expensive headphone because it measures to some subjective holy grail just as a DAC or amp will not....
But now you are just making things up, right? There are very good reasons why for certain products it costs a lot to have certain performance characteristics. For headphones or DACs there aren't, if we only consider sound quality.

Don't you think it's a bit weird to believe that there must be some magical unmeasurable qualities in expensive products rather than that the price is high just because manufacturer wants to make more profit? If one would use the same logic in normal life they would have hard time living through life. But I guess hifi itself is so special that it defies logic and common sense.
 

IAtaman

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Why is price a factor in audio? If this site shows anything, it is that there is very little correlation between price and performance.
People have been told that it's the silver and the gold and the beryllium that makes speakers sound good, and you need expensive linear power supplies with exotic components powering over engineered and over-built DACs and AMPs to really enjoy your music. If you have been hearing that for decades, accepting you can actually get the same performance from a $200 DAC might be sounding like fairy tale.
 

DLS79

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People have been told that it's the silver and the gold and the beryllium that makes speakers sound good, and you need expensive linear power supplies with exotic components powering over engineered and over-built DACs and AMPs to really enjoy your music.

I wonder if they know beryllium can give potentially you cancer!
 

MerlinGS

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a 200 dollar hP will not magically sound as good as an expensive headphone because it measures to some subjective holy grail just as a DAC or amp will not....
You are right, a $200 DAC/AMP will not necessarily match the transparency of a $10,000 unit because it measures to some subjective holy grail. Instead, we should rely on our ears, well better yet, the ears of numerous persons to try and arrive at an objective holy grail. Luckily, for amplifiers and DACs, there have been numerous studies to determine what is audible to humans, and even better, humans have developed measuring tools that are far more sensitive than human hearing.

Most individuals who have performed research at a high level can also understand individuals wanting to confirm that the assumptions of others (including scientists) are correct...all the power to them. Individuals should learn to doubt claims that don't match their experience, the problem is assuming the experienced dissonance automatically means the one experiencing the difference is automatically correct. That is why testing protocols are developed in science, so that we can properly assess our perception and the potential of bias and other distorting factors. But, back to your point, the measure to determine the validity/audibility of audio equipment should be human hearing.

Ironically, it is a requirement to rely on hearing where many if not most subjectivists (judging by the likes of most reviewers at Stereophile, Absolute Sound, What Hi FI, etc., and forums such as WBF and Audiogon) fail when testing audio equipment. According to the subjectivists in question, all tests must be sighted. The same subjectivists who claim an amplifier sounded broken until they change the power cord (PC), interconnect (IC), and speaker cables (SC) argue that sighted tests place too much stress on the listener. However, we know from testing that individuals can perceive much smaller differences than these "reviewers" generally attribute to PC, IC, and SCs, so the profound changes these "reviewers" hear when auditioning different cables, DACs and amplifiers (that measured well according to objective holy grails) should be easy to discern in double-blind, level matched tests.

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that all DACs, amplifiers, and cables (see MIT filters in SC) sound the same (otherwise why measure them). All I am suggesting is that, thus far, science has shown that there are audio measurements for electronic equipment and cables, that once attained, are beyond the threshold of human hearing, and thus transparent. Please note, that I am not arguing these experientially transparent electronics will be preferred by all individuals. As an example, I know there are certain tube amplifiers I felt sounded lovely with certain recordings and speakers, but I did not assume I was listening to a more accurate audio reproduction system. I recognized that the pleasantness I experienced related to the euphonics reproduced by the audio recording and audio system under said circumstances.

The aforementioned is a long-winded way to say, yes, you are correct, we should listen to our audio system when making judgments, but our testing should be confined to hearing and not seeing, if the sole variable in question is audio transparency or in the case of personal preference audio preference.
 

xaviescacs

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About the price - performance correlation, I always think I'm going to show it properly and I never take the time, but I'm going to say it, which is cheaper.

It's wrong or at least inaccurate to say that price and performance are not correlated. What happens is that there is a more relevant variable to predict performance: brand. This is similar to Simpson's paradox. If you look at all the points and only two variables, price and SINAD, they are uncorrelated, or even negatively correlated. However, if you add the brand, then one finds that price and SINAD have a strong positive correlation, within each brand. So, yes, there is a correlation between price and performance, withing each brand, meaning that within a brand, in general, not always, if you pay more you get more. But that's a very natural thing, if you remove important variables, what do you expect?

So, in summary, if we say price and performance are not correlated, we are hiding an important part of the picture.
 
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DLS79

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About the price - performance correlation, I always think I'm going to show it properly and I never take the time, but I'm going to say it, which is cheaper.

It's wrong or at least inaccurate to say that price and performance are not correlated. What happens is that there is a more relevant variable to predict performance: brand. This is similar to Simpson's paradox. If you look at all the points and only two variables, price and SINAD, they are uncorrelated, or even negatively correlated. However, if you add the brand, then one finds that price and SINAD have a strong positive correlation, within each brand. So, yes, there is a correlation between price and performance, withing each brand, meaning that within a brand, in general, not always, if you pay more you get more. But that's a very natural thing, if you remove important variables, what do you expect?

So, in summary, if we say price and performance are not correlated, we are hiding an important part of the picture.

I don't agree with that at all. Look at topping, smsl, or any of the other "newer" none boutique manufactures. Within their own lineups its additional features, like more inputs and outputs, or special modes that increase price, not performance!
 

Newman

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Some people like to equate price with quality! The whole it's more expensive, so it must be better crowd (the ones that unethical sales people love).
I sure know a lot of salesmen who like to do that!

Also, how often do you see an audiophile come onto the usual audiophile boards and ask for sage advice in choosing a (product), and the first question is “what’s your budget?” And yes, it is not a silly question because people aren’t made of money, but it isn’t used that way by the advice-givers: instead, all the advice is matched to the ceiling of the budgeted limit, plus some advice on how much more sound quality lies in the next price tier above their limit.

A bit sad IMHO.

[Edit: recommendations for products that ‘punch above their price point’ are all part of the same mental model: that there is a sound quality that you can get at each price point, and as the price goes up, the sound quality you can buy goes up, but you get to ‘reach there’ for less by buying ‘bargains’.]
 
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