Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Aleksandar RS]

Again : NO ONE says "all dacs sound the same" except people straw manning the discussion.

If a dac has high levels of noise or distortion - it might well sound different to one that has levels of noise/distortion below the level the human ear can detect. Or from another DAC with high noise/distortion of a different type.

I wasn't referring to DACs that don't meet the basic criteria. In that case, it would be enough to say passed the test or failed, without the need to make a list.

 

[TheBatsEar]

I wasn't referring to DACs that don't meet the basic criteria. In that case, it would be enough to say passed the test or failed, without the need to make a list.

If you start your own forum with a list like that i won't subscribe.

 

[fpitas]

I wasn't referring to DACs that don't meet the basic criteria. In that case, it would be enough to say passed the test or failed, without the need to make a list.

Well, for once you said something sensible. But people want the best bang for their buck, even if their ears are not capable of resolving it.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

No, it doesn't.

You think that if the car has a max speed of 145 and the other 200, they will drive 140 with the same effort.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

If you start your own forum with a list like that i won't subscribe.
View attachment 260495

Thank God.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

But enough about that, Blumlein88 explained quite clearly.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Well, for once you said something sensible. But people want the best bang for their buck, even if their ears are not capable of resolving it.

Also, our hearing and needs differ. For listening, I’m pretty sure a DAC SINAD of 80 or so is just fine for me, even for the rare blasting sessions I do. For others, it might not be, given the nature of the amplification chain. Also, if the DAC is in a production chain, higher numbers might be needed.

 

[DonR]

You think that if the car has a max speed of 145 and the other 200, they will drive 140 with the same effort.

It's a mind game car manufacturers play with you.

Why speedometers go to 140 or 160 mph, even if cars can't drive that fast

Your average minivan or sedan will never go faster than 100 mph, so why does the speedometer go far above that?

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Aleksandar RS]

Well, for once you said something sensible. But people want the best bang for their buck, even if their ears are not capable of resolving it.

I wrote more than once that it makes sense to use SINAD just for that, and not for DAC ranking (for ordinary music lovers, for professional circles and writing scientific papers is another matter), but it didn't go well.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

It's a mind game car manufacturers play with you.

Why speedometers go to 140 or 160 mph, even if cars can't drive that fast

Your average minivan or sedan will never go faster than 100 mph, so why does the speedometer go far above that?

www.businessinsider.com

I don't think I will participate in this discussion.

 

[antcollinet]

I wrote more than once that it makes sense to use SINAD just for that, and not for DAC ranking (for ordinary music lovers, for professional circles and writing scientific papers is another matter), but it didn't go well.

The ranking is useful.

Choose the Sinad level you are personally comfortable with. Cross of all Dacs to the right of that on the chart (with lower sinad), then look for features, performance (more detailed look at measurements), quality, after sales, price - etc etc from what is left, that meets your needs.

 

[TheBatsEar]

SINAD of 80 or so is just fine for me

I live in a busy city, one of the densest populated areas in Europe, in a huge commie bloc. I guess my background noise is 30 to 40dB. Everything over 65 SINAD is wasted on me.

I wrote more than once that it makes sense to use SINAD just for that, and not for DAC ranking (for ordinary music lovers, for professional circles and writing scientific papers is another matter), but it didn't go well.

It didn't go well because you aren't able to fathom that your brain is not a good instrument to judge sound quality.

We wouldn't enjoy you wasting your energy in a containment thread, and laugh about you behind your back, if you showed some humility and acknowledged that your brain is just a wet mess, prone to constant misinterpretation of reality, based on glucose intake and amount of sleep the night before.

No, your brain is better. It's elite!

 

[Aleksandar RS]

I live in a busy city, one of the densest populated areas in Europe, in a huge commie bloc. I guess my background noise is 30 to 40dB. Everything over 65 SINAD is wasted on me.


It didn't go well because you aren't able to fathom that your brain is not a good instrument to judge sound quality.

We wouldn't enjoy you wasting your energy in a containment thread, and laugh about you behind your back, if you showed some humility and acknowledged that your brain is just a wet mess, prone to constant misinterpretation of reality, based on glucose intake and amount of sleep the night before.

No, your brain is better. It's elite!

A quite dark outlook on life. Perhaps this is the crux of our misunderstanding.

 

[AdamG]

It's a mind game car manufacturers play with you.

Why speedometers go to 140 or 160 mph, even if cars can't drive that fast

Your average minivan or sedan will never go faster than 100 mph, so why does the speedometer go far above that?

www.businessinsider.com

Imagine that, just like DAC and Amp manufacturers. Who taught who?

 

[antcollinet]

Imagine that, just like DAC and Amp manufacturers. Who taught who?

Everything goes up to 11

 

[TheBatsEar]

As for what SINAD means, @amirm wrote this in 2018:

Please don't look at this graph too accurately. Small differences are not material and results vary slightly from test to test. Generally look to see what bucket the DAC falls in (color coded in the chart for easy reference: blue = best; red = worst).

SINAD is just a tool to differentiate between utter shite, almost garbage, unacceptable and ok stuff.

 

[sonitus mirus]

Another thing to consider with SINAD is that you can't just pay your way into a better score or wax poetic to make it better. To achieve a top-tier SINAD score, the engineers have to possess the tools and know-how to make this happen, and not simply make a certain led color show up when a bit depth or sample rate are identified.

 

[presence]

That is a meaningess question in the context of my post.

You rightly pointed out that skill can't be measured with instrumentation.

I pointed out that is irrelevant in the context of measurements of equipment (Car/audio reproduction) (IE the measurements we are talking about in this thread). Skill and measurement are orthoganal - they do two different things. In particular - no matter how skilled, your senses are never going to come close to the accuracy of measurement gear. It is why we created measurement gear.

If the technical measurements of equipment show something doesn't exist - no amount of skill can change that.

If the car is measured as having an absolute top speed of 351.7kph - not even Lewis Hamilton's skill can make it go faster.

If a piece of audio equimpment has levels of noise/distortion below that which the human ear can detect - no amount of skill (measured or otherwise) can detect that noise/distortion, or tell the difference between the audio from that device, or a another device with similarly low levels of noise and distortion.

Yes, your argument is as valid, but the point is it belogs to sub-group. That you cant see somehow.

Measurements are not relevant if anyone cannot hear the difference. They are tiny details, which are less relevant in bigger picture. They are important and good to know, but mainly people are hearing the device, not fell in love its measurements.

Same for F1. The driver gets paid $30 000 000 and the guy who measure everything gets paid $50 000?

 

[Adi777]

What about a 200 USD DAC paired with 20.000 USD speakers? Would that fit? No?

No, not for me. Probably any DAC in this price range will look cheap and like a toy.

 

[solderdude]

But what if someone built a $ 200.- DAC inside a beautiful crafted and huge box... would this work ?