Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[restorer-john]

So we really should be clear as to exactly what we're discussing when we use the word "transparent". We wouldn't want to "cross wires", so to speak.

I just wish people would stop using the word altogether.

 

[pkane]

maybe some of the talent gets imbued to the parts during test sessions. The picture is not yet clear and we cannot know the truth.

This is easily explained by quantum entanglement of the car and the driver. The entanglement becomes more obvious in the case of a crash when it might prove difficult to unentangle the two… just like it is usually difficult to unentangle the audiophile’s mind and his high-end equipment. Science!!!

 

[Blumlein 88]

I just wish people would stop using the word altogether.

We have to use the word. If you have something not perfect, then you can lift the veils getting closer to transparency. And at the same time we cannot have any truly transparent gear, because then there is no way veils can be lifted.

Maybe we should hew closer to the window analogy. Instead of lifting veils gear improvements could be called Windexing. Like, I put in this new DAC, and it was apparent that the soundstage was cleaner and clearer due to Windexing my aural windows. You could even have a ranking system.....you know a Windex.

(Just don't bring up the issues of Glass Plus.)

 

[fpitas]

Maybe the driver makes the car measure better in ways the science has not yet been able to determine? The driver is after all integral in the development of the car, maybe some of the talent gets imbued to the parts during test sessions. The picture is not yet clear and we cannot know the truth.

A good driver offers useful critique of the car's behavior, and works with the engineers to improve matters. So, not quite as metaphysical as you think...

 

[ahofer]

We have to use the word. If you have something not perfect, then you can lift the veils getting closer to transparency. And at the same time we cannot have any truly transparent gear, because then there is no way veils can be lifted.

Maybe we should hew closer to the window analogy. Instead of lifting veils gear improvements could be called Windexing. Like, I put in this new DAC, and it was apparent that the soundstage was cleaner and clearer due to Windexing my aural windows. You could even have a ranking system.....you know a Windex.

(Just don't bring up the issues of Glass Plus.)

 

[fpitas]

But isn't there some Windex product that costs $10k a bottle, and uses exotic ingredients?

 

[antcollinet]

I know what you mean, but like I said the reality is that those cognitive biases are the ones that make you or brake you in professional world.

In F1, where they measure everything the engineers have claimed there are areas that cant be measured, what comes to drivers raw talent. Some drivers just have a ability to drive better that others, are more gifted to drive? They can beat others with poorer car etc..

In audio, the price has nothing to do with 'quality' and its usefulness for pro use. There are free plugins that are better than expencive analog gear. Again, your desicions as a professional make you or brake you. Same goes with measurements. Following them only doesent take you anywhere.

All of which is true. But you are talking about measuring an F1 drivers talent. Everything about the performance of the tool the driver uses - his car - is measurable - and an awful lot of it is measured - in real time - as he is driving.

And it doesn't matter how "good" you are, how talented, or skilled, you are still prone to being deceived by cognitive bias.

Your skill as an audio engineer is about understaning how what you do to sound impacts the enjoyment of the listtener. How to mix and master to get the best possible out of the music that will appeal to as large a percentage of the audience as possible. Everything you do, every change you make however is measureable. Your skill doesn't mean that somehow your ears are able to detect some mythical unmeasurable aspects of audio - nor do you need to be able to in order to be a world class engineer.

 

[ahofer]

the reality is that those cognitive biases are the ones that make you or brake you in professional world.

Another word for cognitive biases is "heuristics". There's a lot of speculation that humans evolved to have rapid heuristics that are right *most of the time* and helped to avoid predators. Typically, false alarms weren't that costly in predator detection - you jumped away from a stick, not a snake, not a costly mistake. There was no time for running a checklist to differentiate the snake from the stick, or the squirrel's noise from the bear's. In the recording studio, your instincts about mic placement or mixing might save you hours vs. pure trial-and-error, but will keep you within one limited part of the distribution of possibilities.

But "most of the time" isn't helpful for science. We have time to explore this subject at leisure, methodically. If you look at the published literature of people who did so, the result is clear: We have yet to identify audible signal phenomena that aren't easily measured (but many things that can be measured but are not audible); controlled listening tests reveal little-to-no audible difference in DACs and electronics in general, outside of incompatibility and poor design.

In this case, where survival is not at stake, heuristics are generally breaking people.

 

[Mnyb]

The F1 driver analogy does not realy hold a DAC is as complicated as a rock compared to a human and an F1 car is very complex ? A DAC It's caries a 2 dimensional electrical signal in each channel it's has magnitude and a frequency ie a squiggly continuous curve that's it ? if the squiggly input curve is extremely similar to the squiggly output curve , there are not many place left for the night and day differences to hide ?

It's not music it's just an electrical signal.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

Jesus Christus, lol, I made the term up, I said "blind status seeking audiophile", with the "blind" bit implying that they are buying their gear effectively with their eyes closed as they don't really know how it performs, just that it's expensive / might look good / and the sales person told them it's the bees knees (for example).

Well, didn't you clarify that ten minutes earlier in the previous post. Or you forgot.

 

[Killingbeans]

It's not music it's just an electrical signal.

Indeed. One part of layman's intuition I'd really like to see abolished, is the one that makes people think electrical amplitude can have a personality.

 

[fpitas]

Indeed. One part of layman's intuition I'd really like to see abolished, is the one that makes people think electrical amplitude can have a personality.

That's the part you can't measure it's like the layman's imaginary number, orthogonal to our reality

 

[MattHooper]

I just wish people would stop using the word altogether.

"I just wish people would stop using the word."

 

[AdamG]

I just wish people would stop using the word altogether.

Announcement Announcement!!!

From hence forth, until the end of time. We hereby prohibit the use of the word “altogether”.

 

[DonR]

Announcement Announcement!!!

From hence forth, until the end of time. We hereby prohibit the use of the word “altogether”.

All together now! All together now.

 

[MattHooper]

I just wish people would stop using the word altogether.

"I just wish people would stop using the word."

All together now! All together now.

Not enough Airplane fans around here:

 

[Mr. Widget]

Not enough Airplane fans around here:

You had to go there!

 

[Aleksandar RS]

Yes.
Look at the review of the $46500 CH 1.2 in the latest Stereophile. It’s no better than mediocre. I’m sure it sounds OK, though, because our ears are very poor discriminators.
They’re selling a fancy box and lots of hand-waving, and that’s what some people want to buy.

My reaction to your post, as well as the next 2 related posts, have been moved to another thread. A very interesting choice of places where you cut and move messages to another thread. They have a total of five related posts of exchange of opinions, they leave 2 posts and move 3. Along with them, 2 more were moved, which in terms of content makes absolutely no sense to move. Anyway, it would be nice to leave a notice (where it was cut) where you moved the posts, and, of course with the name of the moderator, at least to make it look done right.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

See fashion, looks, etc. have a lot to do with it.
Here is a little tale:
During the height of Covid, I was suffering from kidney stone.
I was at hospital, barely functional and almost deserted.
There were long waits, for skeleton staff to see to patients.
I was waiting for an operation!
I had taken my original Mojo with me, with my IEMs.
Three different nurses, were curious as to what it was! what it did? Even my surgeon!
Mojo is an odd looking device, that makes it stand out, and to some desirable!
If you think its high price would have been a deterent! think again, it made it more desirable .

Did they accept it as payment for the kidney stone removal Ken.

 

[DonR]

Did they accept it as payment for the kidney stone removal Ken.

My guess is that Ken used the NHS.