Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Blumlein 88]

I didn't start with that analogy. The whole discussion started when TheBatsEar wrote ""Why do family cars have a peak kmh of 190, others 191, when you aren't allowed to drive faster than 140 anyway?". After that others followed up. I don't know if It's clear that I was trying to explain that the analogy doesn't make sense, and what's the problem.

Forgive me I thought you first mentioned the speedometers.

Now where is my pitchfork. @TheBatsEar should know better.

 

[Blumlein 88]

… did he get hit by a car speeding? At 100 or was it 160kmh? Or was it mph? A sedan? A pickup? A soccer mom? No wait now I got it … it measured 186.836372 but it felt easily like 200

One of my cars can switch between a 200 mph readout and 300 kph readout. One can get confused for sure. However, since it has 300 kph on the speedo, it is so comfortable and drives with such aplomb I've never hit anything with it so far.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

One of my cars can switch between a 200 mph readout and 300 kph readout. One can get confused for sure. However, since it has 300 kph on the speedo, it is so comfortable and drives with such aplomb I've never hit anything with it so far.

Good. Keep it that way.

 

[Aleksandar RS]

Oh I did. It is grotesque.

Are you able to make your point related to Audio measurements or do you have genuine questions with which we can help you with?

You still don't understand that I was responding to the constant repetition that the analogy is good. Can you somehow accept that and end this pointless discussion.

 

[AdamG]

You still don't understand that I was responding to the constant repetition that the analogy is good. Can you somehow accept that and end this pointless discussion.

If he can’t I can. This is the End to the Car analogy! Must be time to switch to Motorcycles or Ships…..

 

[Blumlein 88]

If he can’t I can. This is the End to the Car analogy! Must be time to switch to Motorcycles or Ships…..

Ships are not a good analogy for motorcycles. I'll pass.

I mean what is the Harley Davidson of ships or even the Hyabusa?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Ships are not a good analogy for motorcycles. I'll pass.

I mean what is the Harley Davidson of ships or even the Hyabusa?

What about rocket ships?

Yes car analogies are even by far worse than listening uncontrolled and without level matching.

 

[Purité Audio]

Hot air…… balloon
Keith

 

[AdamG]

Hot air…… balloon
Keith

Wondering why the “Hindenburg” immediately came to mind

 

[Killingbeans]

I mean what is the Harley Davidson of ships or even the Hyabusa?

 

[AdamG]

Just waiting for one of them to say “Hold my Beer”.

 

[DonR]

That is a boat, not a ship...

 

[MAB]

Thanks for explaining, it's hard for me to follow some of the discussions though I find them interesting and try to glean as much as I can from them.

@tuga just started a very useful thread on what jitter actually sounds like.

What does jitter ACTUALLY sound like? (jitter test tracks)

The following website has some simulated jitter test tracks: What does jitter ACTUALLY sound like? There are seven versions of each sample. Three have periodic jitter, three have random jitter, and one is the original - untouched. In the samples we have 2µs (microseconds), 4µs, 8µs, 16µs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It is really interesting to listen to the test tracks in the OP and see what you can hear.

 

[jgaldden]

i appreciate this forum. measurements are a critical element in narrowing focus on what to audition and are a fundamental aspect of any review worth its salt. i also admire the steadfast belief in double blind testing to ensure psychology is not coloring impressions of a new “key” element introduced in to a chain.

i am disappointed however by the repetitiveness of replies to threads recommending this obvious critical process as if it lends some authority to a member's opinion who has not auditioned the item and is dismissing it having not subjected it to the standards they are recommending.

can’t we just write a short paragraph mentioning measurements and blind testing are important in the forum’s landing page to keep parrots from thread shitting over and over again?

something as simple as that might cut out all the crap in every thread of this forum posted by people who have never auditioned the equipment and continue to offer this inane, stupidly obvious advice.

it might allow those of us who are actively improving our systems utilizing both our ears and measurements the ability to have intelligent conversations free of baseless opining. if you have not auditioned the item of discussion your thoughts are of zero value to anyone.

a great audio system is a work of art, if it was purely based on coupling the “best”measuring components a deaf monkey could do it. and maybe you believe that is true, a deaf monkey could do it, which is fine, but if googling, cutting and pasting measurements or worse, recommending a double blind test is all you got, we have all heard it before, every thread is choked with it, please, please, please stop embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone’s time.

 

[Chrispy]

i appreciate this forum. measurements are a critical element in narrowing focus on what to audition and are a fundamental aspect of any review worth its salt. i also admire the steadfast belief in double blind testing to ensure psychology is not coloring impressions of a new “key” element introduced in to a chain.

i am disappointed however by the repetitiveness of replies to threads recommending this obvious critical process as if it lends some authority to a member's opinion who has not auditioned the item and is dismissing it having not subjected it to the standards they are recommending.

can’t we just write a short paragraph mentioning measurements and blind testing are important in the forum’s landing page to keep parrots from thread shitting over and over again?

something as simple as that might cut out all the crap in every thread of this forum posted by people who have never auditioned the equipment and continue to offer this inane, stupidly obvious advice.

it might allow those of us who are actively improving our systems utilizing both our ears and measurements the ability to have intelligent conversations free of baseless opining. if you have not auditioned the item of discussion your thoughts are of zero value to anyone.

a great audio system is a work of art, if it was purely based on coupling the “best”measuring components a deaf monkey could do it. and maybe you believe that is true, a deaf monkey could do it, which is fine, but if googling, cutting and pasting measurements or worse, recommending a double blind test is all you got, we have all heard it before, every thread is choked with it, please, please, please stop embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone’s time.

Cable threads are mostly amusing as there's rarely an actual reason to have one....especially this one. Do you "hear" cables and want some monkey's baseless opining?

 

[voodooless]

if you have not auditioned the item of discussion your thoughts are of zero value to anyone.

Must I drive this car to know it’s shit:

Yet all the lackeys are trying to convince the emperor that his new car are perfectly fine, special even.

a great audio system is a work of art, if it was purely based on coupling the “best”measuring components a deaf monkey could do it. and maybe you believe that is true, a deaf monkey could do it, which is fine, but if googling, cutting and pasting measurements or worse, recommending a double blind test is all you got, we have all heard it before, every thread is choked with it, please, please, please stop embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone’s time.

Clearly this forum is not for you. Please let us embarrass ourselves in peace This is not AudioArtReview…

 

[antcollinet]

i appreciate this forum. measurements are a critical element in narrowing focus on what to audition and are a fundamental aspect of any review worth its salt. i also admire the steadfast belief in double blind testing to ensure psychology is not coloring impressions of a new “key” element introduced in to a chain.

i am disappointed however by the repetitiveness of replies to threads recommending this obvious critical process as if it lends some authority to a member's opinion who has not auditioned the item and is dismissing it having not subjected it to the standards they are recommending.

can’t we just write a short paragraph mentioning measurements and blind testing are important in the forum’s landing page to keep parrots from thread shitting over and over again?

something as simple as that might cut out all the crap in every thread of this forum posted by people who have never auditioned the equipment and continue to offer this inane, stupidly obvious advice.

it might allow those of us who are actively improving our systems utilizing both our ears and measurements the ability to have intelligent conversations free of baseless opining. if you have not auditioned the item of discussion your thoughts are of zero value to anyone.

a great audio system is a work of art, if it was purely based on coupling the “best”measuring components a deaf monkey could do it. and maybe you believe that is true, a deaf monkey could do it, which is fine, but if googling, cutting and pasting measurements or worse, recommending a double blind test is all you got, we have all heard it before, every thread is choked with it, please, please, please stop embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone’s time.

Here we go again, once more round the mulberry bush.

 

[bodhi]

a great audio system is a work of art,

You any many others want, so very hard, to believe that. And that is why I don't think you will find objectivist forums very enjoyable.

 

[BDWoody]

can’t we just write a short paragraph mentioning measurements and blind testing are important in the forum’s landing page to keep parrots from thread shitting over and over again?

No, doesn't seem to work.

What we do is move the posts that bring up the same challenges to one or two places so they don't pollute the rest of the forum. This is one of those threads.

if googling, cutting and pasting measurements or worse, recommending a double blind test is all you got, we have all heard it before, every thread is choked with it, please, please, please stop embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone’s time.

As soon as people stop using uncontrolled subjective claims as if they represented evidence.

 

[solderdude]

it might allow those of us who are actively improving our systems utilizing both our ears and measurements the ability to have intelligent conversations free of baseless opining. if you have not auditioned the item of discussion your thoughts are of zero value to anyone.

In every review there are basically a few 'parameters'.
1: technical performance (measurable)
2: longevity and build quality
3: impressions from owners including operational, and devices breaking, service, seller and manufacturer 'issues'
4: Operational issues (difficult menus, buttons not easy to operate/reach)

About ...
1: To make a full recomendation/evaluation many, many measurements should be done. Yet only some basic measurements are posted/discussed.
Sometimes interaction with other gear is not taken into account, common mode/groundloop/RF susceptibility/emission is not measured and could be of importance.
So here (at ASR) a choice is made by the reviewer (in most cases Amir) which measurements are made and which one is shown.
In some cases Amir is asked to make specific measurements, in some cases this is not possible, sometimes Amir does them.

2: This is not easy to predict unless a torture test is done and the device is fully taken apart. A teardown often is not possible as the gear is from owners who send one in.

3: Yes, here you need the feedback from owners, for parameter 1 you do not need that at all.

4: Sometimes this is duscussed by the reviewer or owners. An owners opinion helps but some things are so obvious one can see it looking at pictures or manuals.
Owning a device may help bring issues forward but is not a necessity in a discussion.

a great audio system is a work of art, if it was purely based on coupling the “best”measuring components a deaf monkey could do it. and maybe you believe that is true, a deaf monkey could do it, which is fine, but if googling, cutting and pasting measurements or worse, recommending a double blind test is all you got, we have all heard it before, every thread is choked with it, please, please, please stop embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone’s time.

Not a work of art, rather a labour of love and care taken by the owner that values it. A personal thing and VERY biased because of it.
Also most folks do not go for 'optimal signal fidelity' (despite them thinking they do) but go with what 'sounds best' to them.
This, however, is merely a personal opinion based on their personal taste. It has no relevance to reviews on ASR. These are about signal fidelity and the assurance for most people that desire optimum signal fidelity.
To most of these people (ASR followers) optimal signal fidelity is an assurance that possible 'not so good' sound is either the recording or room or personal preference being in the way and NOT signal fidelity of the chosen components.
That may NOT be what everyone is looking for. For them there are many, many other review sites. Some also publish a few measurements.