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Magnepan LRS Speaker Review

cabs84

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those are lobes/peaks/nulls as one rotates around the speaker in a horizontal plane? also what does the equation represent? relation of wavelength compared with a dimension of the driver? thanks

ah, i see the source. will go educate myself, or at least attempt
 

DavidMcRoy

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I've owned mostly planar speakers (Acoustat, Magnepan and Quad) and coaxial "conventional" speakers (KEF and Tannoy) over my 50 years in audio. My attraction to planars has always been the big wavefront they launch, and until fairly recent advances in moving coil drivers made it less of a issue with those speakers, the very low distortion of many planars and electrostatics.

I've also experimented with building line arrays from some small, not-so-great two-way box speakers to replicate the big wavefront of a big planar, with mixed results. The disadvantage of planars and line sources in my experience has been an extremely tight listening window, especially compared with coaxials.

We can look at their ugly radiation pattern illustrations all day, but the fact is that it is possible to get extremely good sound from line arrays and planars, but it's relatively difficult to achieve in a real room. As Amir has observed, the designer of a planar speaker has left much of the speaker's "design" up to the end user, because room integration is such a chore. It took me a few decades to figure it out myself.
 
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cabs84

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agreed. after reading more anyway, it looks like that's the vertical dispersion pattern, and what i understand to be lobing as the listener goes beyond the upper/lower edge of the array. in my completely unscientific testing as seen below, i'm unable to hear any of these peaks/nulls as i move [my phone] within the bounds between L and R and the upper and lower edges of the panels. i think measurements are actually *more* sensitive than our ears, here.

 

Joppe Peelen

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I do hear those dips and peaks :( and even a dirty measurement with only 15 cm in height difference will show them :(

Well i am making planar speakers for years now (for hobby and try to make something that could be sold.. but must be able to do a bit more then the ones that are already available ), and the measurement is correct !! unfortunately. almost every planar speaker, Apogee, Magnepan, Martin logan, Audiostatic, etc are to small to reap the benefit of a true line source. what they do gain is the downsides, of a to small line source, uneven response vertically, and extreme bad vertical dispersion.

Playing at the moment with a ribbon of my design as top end with rather good results

inspired by Mr Keele's CBT. currently mated with regular planar magnetic bass panels..... it sounds rather nice !! . it combines good dispersion horizontal and vertical, and stays pretty the same over distance and height. while using a long ribbon driver. that generally does not have these attributes. even when you sit or stand on a stool at 2 meter distance.

Keep in mind i would like to earn my living with proper looking contraption like these for over 10 years.
 

cabs84

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i remember the two CBT array kits from partsexpress from years ago - was interested in building the smaller of the two with full range drivers, but saw that you absolutely have to use DSP to get it close to flat. still, would love to have been able to hear it
 

Joppe Peelen

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i remember the two CBT array kits from partsexpress from years ago - was interested in building the smaller of the two with full range drivers, but saw that you absolutely have to use DSP to get it close to flat. still, would love to have been able to hear it
im not using a kit , its a ribbon driver, only eq used is a notch at 9 Khz, besides that nothing :) quite enoyable so far :) a recording binaural; can be found here : only works with headphones though!!!!!!
 
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Mario Sanchez

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A used pair is available locally, and I'm interested in a pair of speakers I can mess around with and try to improve.
Can these be bi-amped? The first-order crossover on these (according to something I read on Stereophile a while back, supported by the simple impedance transfer function) and the wide band across which both parts of the panel have significant output due to this crossover scheme seems to really mess up the horizontal off-axis response around 700Hz-3KHz (see image). Seems like it could fare better in that region with a sharper, digital XO, so the off-axis is less of a mess in the mids while the "linear phase" nature of the crossover is preserved.
Other issues like the mess of response past 5KHz (possibly due to diffractions and stuff, and the tweeter panel losing it) will persist, but that's just an invite to fiddle a bit more if they are easily tweak-able, starting with bi-amping and a digital, FIR based crossover.

1672345677423.png
 

NiagaraPete

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Too bad we don’t have a vote on this one.

A friend of mine loves these. I must say they are the worst speakers I’ve ever had to listen to. Though the owner enjoyed them and imagined I had the same impression. The problem was I was not in his chair. Way too small of a sweet spot for my taste.
 

DevinCortno

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Seeing a set of Martin Logans measured would be much more interesting than this... they seem to have a much more realistic idea about what an electrostat can actually do, crossing over to traditional cone woofers to play midbass and bass. The newest ones with the active bass section and built-in room correction sounded absolutely spectacular when I demo'd them... Masterpiece 15A, I believe. Enormous and expensive but wow.

But I don't think a Klippel is even capable of analyzing them... if this sound field was too complex, a Logan is even worse.
 

Joppe Peelen

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Seeing a set of Martin Logans measured would be much more interesting than this... they seem to have a much more realistic idea about what an electrostat can actually do, crossing over to traditional cone woofers to play midbass and bass. The newest ones with the active bass section and built-in room correction sounded absolutely spectacular when I demo'd them... Masterpiece 15A, I believe. Enormous and expensive but wow.

But I don't think a Klippel is even capable of analyzing them... if this sound field was too complex, a Logan is even worse.



erm ML has little to no idea how size works with frequency (im sure they know but dont care)... huge panel with slight curve that does nothing. so terible vertical but also terible horizontal. then crossed to a cheap woofer... besides that for a ESL worst distortion since they used the dumb curved idea instead of flat ! and no segmentation.. so ML might be the worst from all ESL's
besides that a magnepan is not a ESL...

istill do wonder how well the klipppel works , ever tried a CBT ? since that would be magepan like size but should rock any other speaker in terms of constant beamwidth.. i hope the klippel would do this correct to be honest. if not you can ditch all the measurements made so far. i belive amir measured a JBL version though. so actually it should work
 
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DevinCortno

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erm ML has little to no idea how size works with frequency (im sure they know but dont care)... huge panel with slight curve that does nothing. so terible vertical but also terible horizontal. then crossed to a cheap woofer... besides that for a ESL worst distortion since they used the dumb curved idea instead of flat ! and no segmentation.. so ML might be the worst from all ESL's
besides that a magnepan is not a ESL...

istill do wonder how well the klipppel works , ever tried a CBT ? since that would be magepan like size but should rock any other speaker in terms of constant beamwidth.. i hope the klippel would do this correct to be honest. if not you can ditch all the measurements made so far. i belive amir measured a JBL version though. so actually it should work
what's that about worst distortion
1672354951169.png

1672354974896.png


cheap woofers???
1672355003679.png


excellent in room FR... and this is their entry level panel
1672355030005.png
 

Joppe Peelen

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what's that about worst distortion
View attachment 253341
View attachment 253342

cheap woofers???
View attachment 253343

excellent in room FR... and this is their entry level panel
View attachment 253344
Oh i might not have been clear, sorry. a regular ESL will function better. and its also a thing of size... that panel is huge. im glad it can achieve those results :) (impressive to be fair) now if your panel would be flat .. it would be lower. stretching mylar in a curve... never will be a curve. some pieces will be flat (mostly in the middle)
instead of curved. hence not being in the middle. or not even having the same tension. now for the woofers.. i did made a mistake calling it cheap sorry about that since they might not be at all. but usually do not match well with a ESL.. using a bass reflex... worst choice. but it was my fault to call them cheap ! might be really good !
 
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Joppe Peelen

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By the way a single ended planar i made some years ago does this at 1khz.. and it is not a push pull. its the max my amp could put out.. (rather in efficient speaker and shit amp)

1672356551288.png





here is the push pull version. at 1 Khz nearing 100db @ 1 meter
at max output my amp could do. now there could be some deviation in spl witch influences the distortion to. cheap SPL meter so lets remove 3 db.. then still.. that would also retract from the distortion....

a planar should not out perform a ESL. if you ask me. so yes ML ESL is nice!! but could be way better, hence i say its the worst ESL. not so much the distortion but no segmentation :(

1672357634590.png
 
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Joppe Peelen

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by the way i wonder how the ML managed to have 0 8 % at 500hz at 100 db VS 0.44% t 1khz at 90 dB... that does not make sense.

halving the frequency would quadruple the movement .... adding 10dB would almost do the same (slightly less) so having 0,8%.. would be a miracle ?
 
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DevinCortno

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by the way i wonder how the ML managed to have 0 8 % at 500hz at 100 db VS 0.44% t 1khz at 90 dB... that does not make sense.

halving the frequency would quadruple the movement .... adding 10dB would almost do the same (slightly less) so having 0,8%.. would be a miracle ?
Iirc on those there would be reinforcement from the woofers, crossover is at 500hz I believe
 

DonH56

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by the way i wonder how the ML managed to have 0 8 % at 500hz at 100 db VS 0.44% t 1khz at 90 dB... that does not make sense.

halving the frequency would quadruple the movement .... adding 10dB would almost do the same (slightly less) so having 0,8%.. would be a miracle ?
It transitions from the ESL panel to the dynamic woofer at 400 Hz so the panel is probably rolling off at 500 Hz.
 

teashea

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This is a review and detailed measurements of the Magnepan LRS (Little Ribbon Speaker). It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $650.

NOTE: as you will see later, this is a special review with far more detail than I usually show in a speaker test. I thought it would be "fun" to see much more extensive treatment of these speakers. Result was three full days of measuring, processing, processing again and again, generating slides, generating those again, and again. I hope you appreciate the extra work that has gone into this review and no, I won't be doing this with future reviews. :)

Given the detail level, this is not for a casual reader of these reviews. As such, feel free to skip to subjective listening results and conclusions.

I was thankful for the thin and relative light weight of the LRS when I went to measure it and carry it to my listening room:

View attachment 83600

As you can sort of tell from above picture, there are two panels side-by-side. One to the left with wider size and traces and the other handling higher frequencies with much narrower width. Per feedback from membership, I selected the measurement axis/point as being more or less where the "X" mark is in red (center of the panel). Alas, I had to empirically move this [position (in software) as you will see later. I wanted the center of that axis to be on the tweeter but the auxiliary stand that I built was symmetrical and wouldn't allow me to go close to the right.

You see an indentation toward top. This is not normally visible but the reason for it is a large button screw that holds the panel down (I think).

A set of metal stands forces a some amount of lean back which I find surprising. By dropping a couple of rings, you can tilt the speaker less and is something that is recommended by the company if listening past 10 feet or so. I was worried about measuring the speaker so leaning back in its default position so I tiled it up mostly to the angle that would be if you used the secondary, more upright position.

I was fortunate enough to get a preview measurement that was performed by Klippel distributor in US, Warkwyn labs which was published in AudioExpress magazine. My measurements match theirs although the results as presented are different due to some improvements I made as you see later.

Warkwyn measurements showed that the Klippel system was struggling to characterize the sound field despite using over 2000 measurement points. I was going to use more measurement points only to realize it would take 5 hours just to do the 2000 point measurement! It was really strange to watch the system make a vertical set of measurements and move a millimeter and do that all over again! The tall speaker meant there was a lot of time lost moving up and down, lengthening measurements.

Not only was the measurement time long, but so was processing the 1.5 Gigabyte file to compute the sound field and various measurements. Computational time was in the order of half hour.

Klippel NFS Measurement Accuracy
As most of you hopefully know, the Klippel NFS makes a series of near-field measurements (in order to benefit from better signal to noise ratio) and then using those points, solves the partial differential equations that describe the wave propagation. Once there, we are able to predict the sound field in any point in space in the far field (where we more or less listen). The technique while wonderful, has limitations in that if the sound field becomes too complex, it requires many more measurement points and "orders of expansion." Despite using high measurement points used per above (more than 2X of any speaker I have measured), the sound field was too complex in high frequencies to get accurate readings. Klippel is able to determine the error by making additional "real" measurements that it then compares to what it has computed. The difference is expressed in dB of error. Usually the results are below -20 dB indicating 1% error in most or all of the audible band. That was not the case here:


View attachment 83601

In theory, this should NOT have happened. Lay intuition about this speaker is that they are two vertical drivers each sending out a perfect plane wave of their own. Reality is different in that there are clearly other sources of sound interfering with each other, creating a highly complex wave front. Fortunately, the error is not high enough to distort what we are interested in. Here is a Klippel graph showing the actual versus computed response at a certain point:

View attachment 83602

Focusing on the right, the actual measured response was in red but the blue is what is computed. As you see, as the frequencies go higher, error increases but fortunately it still more or less follows the response of the speaker which is dropping like a rock above 10 kHz or so.

Speaker Radiation Pattern
Normally I lead with our spinorama measurements but here, I thought we work backward and first look at the directivity of the speaker. Here it is in the horizontal axis. That is, you are facing the speaker and the graph shows what happens 360 degrees around the speaker:

View attachment 83603

Being a dipole speaker, the LRS radiates what you see in the front, in the back. The back response however is split into two halves (top and bottom of the graph) so not as intuitive. But hopefully you see it now with the annotations in place. We have a nice constant beam width up to low treble and then the pretty picture corrupts:

View attachment 83604

The notch around 1 kHz in directivity is due to offset nature of the tweeter panel. I have the "right" speaker so the treble has baffle amplification on the left but not right. At least this is what I assumed when I created the slide but I am not sure the tweeter is active there. Open to ideas from readers.

The most interesting part and what cost me a lot of time and effort was the vertical dispersion:

View attachment 83606

Yes, as you go above 1 kHz or though, the speaker starts to beam hugely, creating a super narrow angle of +- 10 degrees where you get the full response. Go up or down below this and you have massive loss of high frequencies. Indeed that is what I had when I first measured the speaker as did the Warkwyn plots. So I started to adjust the reference axis higher and higher until I got it in that sweet spot.

Spinorama Speaker Measurements
Here is our standard graph now:

View attachment 83608

To give you an idea of the response was before I changed it, here it is:

View attachment 83609

You basically get no highs or low!

Both graphs show odd modulations of on-axis response above 3 kHz as indicated by the jagged peaks. And the fact that this speaker doesn't generate much sound until you get to 300 Hz or so.

One of the "benefits" of a line source of this type is that you get little radiation above and below the speaker. We can see some of that effect in the early window and the levels of the floor and ceiling reflections:

View attachment 83610

And here is our predicted in-room response:

View attachment 83611

There was no good way to draw the trend line given the large drop in bass response. But I tried anyway.

Sound Field Visualizations
Let's get fancy and look at how the sound propagates from the LRS first in horizontal plane. I can only show this at one frequency at a time so let's start with 500 Hz or so that is squarely in the domain of the main low frequency panel:

View attachment 83613

View attachment 83614

The color shows sound pressure level (red the highest, blue the lowest). We see a wave front radiating from the driver.

Now let's step up to 2.2 kHz:

View attachment 83615

If my interpretation is correct, we now have both drivers radiating and creating interference patterns.

Going to 10 kHz isolates just the tweeter:

View attachment 83616

The tweeter panel is the right but we also get images on the left side of the speaker.

I also analyzed a vertical slice but this time, I will just show a static picture (above animations were a lot of work to create):

View attachment 83620


View attachment 83617


Imagine you are standing on the right looking into the speaker. We see that the radiation pattern on the back and front follow the tilt axis of the speaker as it was measured. Also indicated clearly is that we have a narrow range of radiation before we hit pockets that are nulls or have less power (no red color in them). These interference patterns must be due to multiple sources playing at once and creating the complex sound field I talked about at the start of the review.

Speaker Distortion Measurements
At the original point I was measuring the speaker, the highs were very low and as such, I could not get the LRS up to 86 dB let alone 96 dB. Here are what I got anyway:

View attachment 83618

Distortion seems to be very much in control at higher frequencies.
View attachment 83619

Notice how rough the in-room response is where I measured the speaker.

Impedance Measurements
Electrically panel speakers like LRS are simple resistive loads:

View attachment 83621

Impedance dips down to 3 ohm so you better have an amplifier with good current capability. The phase though is nearly zero. The vertical scale is only 20 degrees and hence the visually large variation.

Transition to Far Field
Klippel computers the response of the speaker and can show at what point we are approaching far field of the speaker. For LRS and at frequencies of 400 Hz and higher, that is 3 meters or 10 feet. So better not sit too close to them:

View attachment 83622

Subjective Speaker Listening Tests
I first positioned the panel right at me and started to play. What I heard sounded like it was coming from a deep well! I then dropped the little rings on the stand and repositioned the speaker as you see in the picture (less toed in). That made a big difference and for a few clips I enjoyed decent sound. Then I played something with bass and it was as if the speaker was drowned under water again. It wasn't just absence of deep bass but rather, quietness on top of that.

Even when the speaker sounded "good" you would hear these spatial and level shifts that was really strange. As the singers voice changed tonality, it would sometimes shift left and right. And change in level no doubt due to uneven frequency response. There was also some strange extended tail to some high frequency notes that would seem to go on forever.

Just when I thought I had the speaker dialed in, I leaned back some and the tonality got destroyed. You had to sit in the proverbial vice around your head to get the "right" sound out of LRS.

I applied a quick and dirty inverse fix to the response to get some semblance of neutrality:

View attachment 83623

The one PEQ shown, combined with an overall lift of the entire response made a huge difference. Speaker was no longer dull, lacking both bass and treble. Alas, after listening some, the highs got to me so I put in the right filter to fix that. And while the LRS could handle the boost in low frequencies well, bringing for the first time some tactile feedback, it did start to bottom out so I had to put that sharp filter for extreme lows.

Once there, I was kind of happy until I played the soundtrack you see at the bottom. Man did it sound horrid. Bland and some of the worse bass I have heard.

When it did sound good -- which was on typical show audiophile tracks -- the experience was good. Alas, every track would sound similar with the same height and spatial effects.

Conclusions
The Magnepan LRS is a hugely flawed speaker with moments of delight. If I could control what you listen to, e.g. in an audio show or dealer room, I could convince you it is much better speaker than it is. The best way I can explain this is that the designers solved 30% of the physics of building a speaker, and threw you in there to solve the rest! You take on the job of spending what must be a lifetime messing with location, tilt, EQ, etc. to get sound that is good for more than a few select tracks.

I am confident a better job can be done than what we see in LRS. Maybe making the panels smaller causes the beaming and interference patterns worse. I don't know. What I do know that this is not a product finished and fit for use by a consumer.

I wonder how much simulation and in field analysis was performed as I have shown here. Doesn't seem like much was done to find and remove issues with this speaker.

Needless to say, I can't recommend the Magnepan LRS.

------------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Have to go and see if I can fix our dishwasher now. :( Too cheap to pay someone $500 or more to fix this German invention. If you want me to consider hiring someone to fix it, please donate generously using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
How could a reputable company even release a speaker that is so pathetic? Thank you so much for the review. Well done as usual Amir.
 

Joppe Peelen

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How could a reputable company even release a speaker that is so pathetic? Thank you so much for the review. Well done as usual Amir.
well.. it think its there most sold speaker lately.. and people go bananas for them. that might be the reason :) by the way most other panels might measure pretty similar reputable or not. the outcome is also based on physics. and since most of the panels are pretty much the same with minor changes. the outcome is as well.

still i can enjoy a good old SMGA :)
 

Head_Unit

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now if your panel would be flat .. it would be lower. stretching mylar in a curve...
Unless the diaphragm actually stretches along the curve, then the whole thing is just moving back and forth perpendicular to the frame. Which then the curve would do zero for dispersion. I have always assumed this was a visual fake/cheat to give an impression of a curved wavefront launch. ?!?!?!?
 
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