LP ... info loss w/repeated plays?

[TBone]

In an attempt to study/adjust for proper high freq. tracking/stylus force & wear on my cartridge:

(no, I don't setup turntables using "ears" alone)

The following info is based on repeat passes using the STR100 CBS Lab disk, track 7B (R.ch. most inner groove), played 5 times, approx. 1 minute apart. Vertical tracking force (VTF) was changed per each pass with no attempt at adjusting speed in relation, hence the slight shift in frequencies (generally: greater VTF, the lower the freq). No change in stylus rake angle (SRA) was provided, however it should be noted that SRA does change based on VTF.

The stylus used is a Fitz Gyger FG-S; an aggressive line-contact type, similar to the Ortofon Replicant. This particular stylus profile was designed to be similar to a vinyl cutting head, therefore the potential to cut/damage records maybe higher when using aggressive profiles. Setup, esp. SRA & proper azimuth are critical to its performance.

Red = 1st pass,
Purple = 5th pass,
The dotted lines indicate respective crosstalk.

5khz ...

20khz ...

I have never put much stock that quick repeated playings damages grooves, however I do understand the potential.

PS. Amir, since a seperate vinyl/turntable section is not provided here, I dumped this into "Analog".

 

[amirm]

That's great info and what I have been looking for for a while! So thanks very much for measuring and posting. The 20 Khz differences are pretty large. And there is fair amount of spreading of spectrum due to speed variations.


What is the one in yellow again? It seems to result in considerable drag on the platter to the point of slowing it down.

On where to put it, this is what I intended the place for it to be, i.e. analog. If there is enough interest, I can make an LP forum.

 

[NorthSky]

Sure Amir, LP is still the King in the year 2016 and beyond.
Analog is more part of our lives than any digital history. We grew up with analog.
And analog people are the better lovers (in bed).

@TBone, this is excellent! I always noticed that each time that I played the same album it sounded different. Like a new music experience each time...awesome!

 

[TBone]

Amir, I recorded 74 tracks x 2 (left/right) and am parsing the data as time permits. My intent was not to measure degradation (if any) but rather to use these measurements as a tool to optimize cart. setup. What I should have done was play/repeat without any physical changes to the tonearm/cart, many times over in short order and measure; that would've provided a better indication of advancing wear. However, I still figure the above relatively useful ...

 

[tomelex]

There will be slight speed and FR variations for each play as well, as we proved over in wbf last year. LP is never the same song twice. Northstar is correct.

 

[Sal1950]

Sure Amir, LP is still the King in the year 2016 and beyond.
Analog is more part of our lives than any digital history. We grew up with analog.
And analog people are the better lovers (in bed).

@TBone, this is excellent! I always noticed that each time that I played the same album it sounded different. Like a new music experience each time...awesome!

I always thought it was due to my buzz being more or less intense as the time passed.
"gotta take more of it or less of it, I'm just not sure which"?

 

[TBone]

There will be slight speed and FR variations for each play as well, as we proved over in wbf last year. LP is never the same song twice. Northstar is correct.

"proved" link?

Again, although possible in some instances, I generally disagree ...

the following is a higher-freq. plot, generated minutes apart, tracking force adjusted by ~0.10g ...

closer look at 18khz ...

Again, used is a very aggressive FG-S stylus with much potential to "cut" into the groove.

The 180L indicates 1.8g left channel, 190L = 1.90g left ch.

2g, 2.12g, 2.25g were also recorded (not shown above) and the results are different still, yet any change is more likely due to +/- VTF and its resulting SRA/coil alignments. This "proven" because a return to 1.8 or 1.9g yielded identical results, even after this track was played >10 times in relatively rapid succession.

So, again, vinyl can prove to be one tough cookie; not easily eaten by repeated stylus plays ... as many people would have us think ...

These results should not be automatically confused with "groove" based permanent damage based on quick consistent plays, because - if that's the case - it would represent a recording nightmare for us serious rippers.

 

[amirm]

The testing we did was with fresh, unopened LPs. The second pass in the instances we checked always sounded better than the first. Does this match with any testing you have done TBone?

 

[TBone]

The testing we did was with fresh, unopened LPs. The second pass in the instances we checked always sounded better than the first. Does this match with any testing you have done TBone?

link?

Subjectively, it does match. I've my theories why, but that said, I have spanking new LPs that I plan on rec/testing in rapid fashion and hope to plot the results here soon (time permitting, its fishing season).

 

[TBone]

to add: the lower freq. plot ...

0-500 ...

These results can alter ...

Example: I had a difficult time correlating some of my initial results with my subjective take on reality. Doubting my methodology, no choice but to start again, ripping/repeating the same rips with greater care / documentation. Yet, the results were similar. Having a high-viscously damped bearing, thermal conditions may cause varying speed conditions. Plus, I use LAST stylus cleaner and Stylast conditioner, which adds a 'slip' factor to the stylus. Silly me, I didn't document when I did a dry stylus clean or a wet one, and that alone could alter the results.

As an aside, this is what miss-tracking looks like:
<100hz Level 5 (highest) Lateral> at ~1.70g ...

and yet, the grooves were not damaged based on subsequent plays/plots. Keep in mind that the quality of vinyl also plays a key role. This CBS STR100 test LP is of the highest quality but vinyl quality on an overall basis, alas, is anything but consistent.

 

[Sal1950]

TBone, I heard you get better results with less damage using cactus needles rather than steel?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the tease.

 

[TBone]

TBone, I heard you get better results with less damage using cactus needles rather than steel?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the tease.

hmmm ... IIRC, someone - out there - does offer cactus cantilevers.

Maybe next retip.

 

[tomelex]

"proved" link?

Again, although possible in some instances, I generally disagree ...

the following is a higher-freq. plot, generated minutes apart, tracking force adjusted by ~0.10g ...
View attachment 1751

closer look at 18khz ...
View attachment 1752

Again, used is a very aggressive FG-S stylus with much potential to "cut" into the groove.

The 180L indicates 1.8g left channel, 190L = 1.90g left ch.

2g, 2.12g, 2.25g were also recorded (not shown above) and the results are different still, yet any change is more likely due to +/- VTF and its resulting SRA/coil alignments. This "proven" because a return to 1.8 or 1.9g yielded identical results, even after this track was played >10 times in relatively rapid succession.

So, again, vinyl can prove to be one tough cookie; not easily eaten by repeated stylus plays ... as many people would have us think ...

These results should not be automatically confused with "groove" based permanent damage based on quick consistent plays, because - if that's the case - it would represent a recording nightmare for us serious rippers.

Since that other forum isolated me to only one thread I don't go there any more but what we did was digitally record a track, and come back and do it (record) again, there were speed differences and at various points you could see FR differences, at various instants, not big stuff, you had to look for it. That is all I was saying, the speed differences and the slight FR differences are there, mostly speed due to the motor speed and slight FR changes due to the cartridge not tracking the same way each time. Audibility of these differences would be questionable IMO. Therefore there is "different" info with each repeated play, but they are minor and our two rips did not amount to testing for "loss" as you are doing.

 

[amirm]

link?

Here you go: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...he-Furutec-Demag&p=38406&viewfull=1#post38406

Here is a copy of the post (these were based on Gary's rips):
---

OK, here is some data. As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating!"

Let's look at the waveforms first. Here, I am comparing only the one channel from each file with the top one being #2 and the bottom, #1. I had to cut the start of the latter to get them to align:

Looks like the #2 has deeper hills and valleys.....

Here is where it gets fascinating. What you see above is NOT the actual notes in the music. But rather, seems to be another set of Piano notes bleeding/printing-through! It is extremely faint and what you see is magnified many times. I heard the same thing in Bruce's samples before. Is there really this much crosstalk?

Once amplified, we can then listen to each track, noting the differences. What I hear in the #2 track is somewhat warmer sound but also, a clear mechanical rumble. The other is thinner in character but is somewhat devoid of that. I guess no matter how expensive or fancy the turntable, some amount of motor noise, etc seems to be bleeding through.

I let you listen to each for yourself:

http://amir-views.com/downloads/Start1.wav
http://amir-views.com/downloads/Start2.wav

Let me know what differences you hear.

BTW, the reason I pay attention to low level detail is that that is the area that is likely impacted the most.

 

[TBone]

Thanks Amir, was getting frustrating looking. Busy day, will digest later ...

 

[NorthSky]

Fascinating!

I wonder if a CD sounds better on its second pass.

And, if it does sound the same, then what about the emotional level, the same too?

LP listening is cool because you have new emotions on each pass of the same music?

P.S. Here she is now; Big Dog ...Hello Mike!

 

[TBone]

K, read the thread, but could not endure past #290, hopefully I didn't miss anything more pertinent.

It's difficult to comment on these type of experiments from the outside looking in, way too many variables and questions concerning equipment and setup, methodology ...

Can't comment on the demag effect either ... however the very first question I'd pose was the condition of the LP in terms of cleanliness, even when spanking new. LP cleaning is critical, and it should be noted that the very act of playing an LP can be considered a form of cleaning, therefore it's possible that the second rec. track traced cleaner grooves. Also consider how >friction caused by grim/compounds/dirt within the groove may result in a slight & variably changing stylus rake angle (SRA) (w/subsequent changes in coil alignment). This causes a "grittier", slightly unfocused type sound. Also consider that with more aggressive stylus shapes may track deeper into the groove, and even after a deep clean, the first play will often accumulate 'crud' upon the stylus, sometimes significant enough to cause slight miss-tracking. Subsequent plays offer less & less crud as the grooves become cleaner.

In my travels, I can often correlate the tracking of a cleaner groove by plotting the resonance freq. ...
- yellow = 1st cleaning (rec.12.2015).
- green = rec. right after 2nd cleaning, exact rec. levels as 1st cleaning (rec.12.2015).
- blue (dotted) = latest recording, no further cleaning, w/different VTF and recording levels (rec.04.2016).

As for cross-talk artifacts, yes, it can be significant, w/altering frequency characteristics. The most inner grooves suffer accordingly, the below rec. is from the CBS STR100 track 6B, placed at near the most inner groove. (Left channel wavelength loss bands containing high freq. 20,18,16,14,12,10, 5khz cut well below the standard 1khz reference level.)

10khz...

Notice the 190R (yellow dotted), adding +0.10g vtf changes the result.

1khz (ref tone)...

Lot's of cross-talk here, but this is the most difficult test ... and it's hard to predict how much, if any, cross-talk was embedded during the actual cutting of the inner most grooves.

also; Bruce's comment ...
"The faint notes are probably tape print-thru or pre-echo that occured because the tape wasn't wound tails-out when transferred to vinyl."
... is unrelated to cross-talk. Tape print-thru and/or pre-echo are relatively common and can be heard on many of my LPs.

 

[NorthSky]

I'm sure I posted this link somewhere else before. I searched which thread would be an appropriate one to link it again, or to start a new thread.
I looked @ one of my own threads about analog, but it has more to do with TT and tonearms designs.
Right here seems to be the right place. Read the article then the comments below.

Yes I know, there are no graphs, no data; but it's coming real soon...don't worry now, the studies are happening as we are typing our words...constantly evolving, improving, with better more accurate and expensive tools (not the ones for free inside your computer), and with also better understanding and more accurate analysis and interpretation of the human brain when facing the music in real life and with reciprocity from measuring graphs performed by your PC and the measuring tools they sell @ audio specialized stores for audio scientists and all.

So, without any further delay, and indulgence, if permissible without capital punishment, please oblige me, or crucify me; I won't bleed in and out.
In the name of our passion and science; music, sweet music to our ears...

By the way, I see that few members are gone now; I won't name them for respect of privacy, but none-the-less they are gone. This is only a simple observation, and has nothing to do with loss of information from our LPs, or damage to our vinyl's grooves from inferior styli that cannot track imperfect LP's grooves from many of them out there...I believe, but graphs are also coming up...just be patient.

• http://www.oregonlive.com/music/index.ssf/2014/11/does_vinyl_really_sound_better.html

I will also seek other professional music recording audio experts opinion from articles they wrote. ...On what kind of stylus we need to not damage our grooves and to track them accurately with all the music info contained in them. And also on why it is sometimes preferable to have the original mono cutting masters. ...From the Beatles, the Stones, the Doors, the Who, etc.

And if by any chance, only one person found my post inappropriate, or off topic, or not scientific enough; please let me know friendly in private, and I will delete my post immediately. I admit, I am slow a little scientifically and with providing data that can influence with absolute certitude the interpretation of the measured results. ...Meaning the receptivity of the human ear and brain and scientific neurology towards a better music listening experience...more pleasurable, more delightful, pleasant, long comfort lasting...without abrasive detriments and without unknown repercussions in long term activities.

Hundred years from now we might know what today we think we know but that we don't. Science is that journey. We're open to all eventualities and unresolved theories with the utmost determination possible with today's our own comprehension and analysis.
Einstein's own theory of gravity is in 'suspend' right now as we are discovering the expansion of the universe because the two main measuring lines don't meet in the middle like they should. But this for another thread.
Right now I am interested with the OP's subject on grooves damage from repeated play, and what type of stylus might contribute to that, and also what kind of vinyl pressing...lacquers.

And to terminate my very brief message, I would ask you to take the time to listen to this youtube video, and share your impression; thank you very much for your time and accommodation, and in particular to TBone, our OP.

 

[TBone]

By the way, I see that few members are gone now; I won't name them for respect of privacy, but none-the-less they are gone...

And if by any chance, only one person found my post inappropriate, or off topic, or not scientific enough; please let me know friendly in private, and I will delete my post immediately.

within the context of this, my thread, you shall not be labelled a "simpleton, child, or dummy" by those now barking up the wrong tree, elsewhere.

We all came here to share and learn, and have fun, so feel free to post your thoughts within the context of this thread.

Turntables are very complex devices (summer project) ...

... every part within a tt plays a role in achieving the kind of sound quality per my expectations. Example, with this particular model, the steel used is so extremely hard that on a prior model, I intended to drill two holes to mount another type motor, but hours later, using a very powerful drill, after only one hole and having burnt thru a few appropriate hardened (&expensive) bits in the process, I decided to go a different route. The wood plinth is kiln dried Mahogany, super light and quite rigid (and illegal to transport in-or-out of this country). The motor is a hall-effect papst and the platter/sub platter are heavy bronze, 16 pounds worth, hence the need for a substantial bearing. Even the bearing oil will be my own 'special' viscous mix, appropriate for this particular design. With turntables, every dependency matters, this deck was designed mid 80's and was superior then, and still offers superior build quality compared to most built today.

I'm still spinning my LPs from that era, and trust me, they're not nearly as worn by repeated plays as some people would have us believe ... because if they were, I'd have abandoned the format years ago.

North, vinyl can indeed sound noticeably superior to it's many digital counterparts given the proper design and appropriate LPs, but it's never a wash, and certainly, vinyl isn't for everyone.

 

[NorthSky]

That picture of your TT just above...that's nothing...regarding the number of individual parts/pieces; some have over 5,000+ individual parts!
And the topic of your thread is an excellent one; if you don't have quality vinyls and quality styli, or not adjusted precisely (tangential angular), you'll wear the grooves, and your stylus too. And the music will suffer, along with you.
Sure I played some albums close to fifty times plus, but my ears can only tell by playing the same album again brand new.
And whoever cut albums (record label companies) from the digital CDs should be ashamed.

* It's a very hot day today here...too hot. And all weekend long.