LP ... info loss w/repeated plays?

[TBone]

I've taken apart so many turntables, probably forgotten more than I care to remember. Personally, the least amount of high quality matching-parts is preferred.

Case in point; the designer of this turntable was the late Mike Moore (glasses) ...

... and one aspect of his design really intrigued me, in that the high carbon steel plinths, the bronze platter, both ring like church bells on Sunday. That characteristic, in itself, is one of any turntables worst nightmare, because the energy generated from the stylus / groove (never mind the motor, bearing and environment) will excite the ringing further, and definitely impart a negative character on the music. Many tables, especially those using too-many parts, no matter what cost, suffer accordingly.

Anyway, Mike knew they rang, and still used 'em, on purpose. Why? Well, because as individual parts, they rang, but as a whole, place together as a unit, they damped each other out, to the point that a stiff knock on the table results in a small quick dull thud.

This is what this particular turntable (this may actually be the very same one, to come alive decades later) looked like when new (with John Gordon's unique arm) ...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There will be slight speed and FR variations for each play as well, as we proved over in wbf last year. LP is never the same song twice. Northstar is correct.

....unless you buy a six figure turntable, then it actually adds audio information, and resolution, with every play. Really. I can hear it.

 

[NorthSky]

Tony, I was going to tell you how many parts went into a very particular TT design. But the info provided by its owner has vanished.
I know exactly where it was, but now I would have to contact him again.

It's no big deal but it goes directly with what you're talking about. Anyway you know that some TT designs are very complex with many many precise machined parts from the best metals and composites. ...The ones from $100,000 and above $500,000
But a $5,000 Linn would do, for people with smaller sources of income.

We can show the top sounding TTs but without good mastered LPs from the best music on tapes some of the main essence is lost forever, or unless...
Today we live in a world where the most important thing is to have the original master tapes in pristine condition, or restore them.
The real value and sound quality that preserve the full presence and essence in our passionate music hobby is in those original master music tapes.

And today's best music recordings are the ones recorded by the best music recording/mixing engineers around the best world's recording professional music studios.
Software is everything, hardware is what makes the software reflects its true face.

Can you wear a laser lens? Can you wear the pits and spaces of a CD? I don't know. What I do know is that when they cannot track anymore a disc the laser lens is out of alignment. That of course assumes that everything is clean...without particles of dust on the lens and/or disc.
Spinning a record vinyl there is no buffer zone. ...Same with projecting a 35mm or 70mm film.

Ultra hi-res audio and ultra hi-def video don't have that high desirable quality of no buffer zone. They are pristine in their delivery, so much so that we aren't yet used to. ...Us the folks in our sixties and seventies, with our eyes and ears of older years.

To preserve analog films and music is to preserve our history through future generations. Progress doesn't need that same attention; it attends itself.

 

[TBone]

Linn and I have a love / not-so-much love, type relationship.

The following video demonstrates my polarization ...

 

[NorthSky]

I just watched the full video. Now can you explain to me your point of polarization?

 

[TBone]

....unless you buy a six figure turntable, then it actually adds audio information, and resolution, with every play. Really. I can hear it.

Hi Tim,

I understand your sarcasm, I really do.

Let's imagine ... vinyl the old bully w/decades worth of -beating down- digital. Poor ole digital ended up developing an inferiority complex, and it stuck. But time is a great equalizer, digital fought back, gaining momentum with music lovers everywhere, even attaining "hi-end" status in audiophile circles. However, bullies rarely except defeat graciously, barking a new superiority, called "ultra-super-duper-hi-end". Of course, only the very few privileged vinylheads could ever afford such USDHE luxuries, only they understood the perfection provided by such devices, while the rest of us mugs ate cake.

Enter commercially available digital recorders ...

... the following is a comparison between the CD data and a very popular turntable rig costing in excess of $70K (us). No pressing information was afforded on the LP rip, although DR values hint they're relatively similar, potential pressing/mastering differences may explain certain discrepancies.

What they can't explain, however, is the very poor timing performance ...

CD=Orange LP=Blue.

Notice the LP peaks are set at higher frequencies, indicating the turntable was running too fast.

A closer look at 0-1K frequency range, quite audible ...

If this was my rip, I'd hit delete, and need rip again!

If this was my turntable, I'd look to fix the issue, and/or talk to the manufacturer, pronto! Perhaps it's missing the latest ultra-super-duper-high-end upgrade?

It should also be noted, the ripper obviously used a subsonic filter, which is too bad, b/c the resonance frequency may hint to other possible and relatively prevalent issues that plague many expensive 'tables.

 

[RayDunzl]

If this was my turntable, I'd look to fix the issue, and/or talk to the manufacturer, pronto!

How is speed accuracy of the CD player, or are you assuming it is right on?

I assumed my PC was good.

But when I play something in Audacity, like a one minute tone, and record it in Audacity via the stereo (PC -> spdif -> DEQ2496 -> OpenDRC-DI -> DAC2 -> preamp -> analog cable -> PC), I only get back 59.6 seconds of tone, even though I start recording before and stop after the tone starts and ends.

That's a .9933 or 1.0067 difference - 100o Hz sent would be 1006.7 on the return. Which is right? Send or receive? Or is either one right?

 

[TBone]

How is speed accuracy of the CD player, or are you assuming it is right on?

I assumed my PC was good.

But when I play something in Audacity, like a one minute tone, and record it in Audacity, I only get back 59.6 seconds of tone, even though I start recording before and stop after the tone starts and ends.

no cd player was used... the CD was EAC archived/ripped to computer.

 

[NorthSky]

Tony, I enjoyed that video on how to make a Linn Sondek LP12 TT. ...Wow, that tonearm has to be very precise...the bering's torque.
...Fascinating, hypnotic, addicting, heroin syringe easy overdosing. ...Nothing else like it...a true analog rush, computer transistor speed controlled.

* Music hi-res audio digital files that you download from your PC, how accurate is the speed? ...And is it under some sort of precise control? ...What's the RPM?
How do they adjust the torque?

 

[RayDunzl]

no cd player was used... the CD was EAC archived/ripped to computer.

... the following is a comparison between the CD data and a very popular turntable rig

Sorry about that, but the issue remains in my head, since my originally unrelated observation (earlier this evening, before your post) was purely via PC, and I came up with this unexpected "internal to the PC" result.

Carry on.

 

[TBone]

I just watched the full video. Now can you explain to me your point of polarization?

well, its a long winding saga; in a nutshell ...

 

[Thomas savage]

I herd good things about bamboo Being used in tt construction.

 

[TBone]

bamboo, in some cultures, was traditionally put into late night fires, to keep the forest ghost from entering the camp during the night. I no longer use such sorcery, having Stewy for protection.

 

[Thomas savage]

bamboo, in some cultures, was traditionally put into late night fires, to keep the forest ghost from entering the camp during the night. I no longer use such sorcery, having Stewy for protection.

Just checking

 

[NorthSky]

well, its a long winding saga; in a nutshell ...

Best answer (post) I've read today...so far.

 

[Sal1950]

I herd good things about bamboo Being used

 

[Thomas savage]

Building already started for next years CES....

The ultimate TT

But yes could mag fag paper too I guess

View attachment 2062

 

[Sal1950]

But yes could mag fag paper too I guess

Always found you Brits using that word for cigarettes a bit distasteful.
Strange language you folks use.

 

[tomelex]

Hi Tim,

I understand your sarcasm, I really do.

Let's imagine ... vinyl the old bully w/decades worth of -beating down- digital. Poor ole digital ended up developing an inferiority complex, and it stuck. But time is a great equalizer, digital fought back, gaining momentum with music lovers everywhere, even attaining "hi-end" status in audiophile circles. However, bullies rarely except defeat graciously, barking a new superiority, called "ultra-super-duper-hi-end". Of course, only the very few privileged vinylheads could ever afford such USDHE luxuries, only they understood the perfection provided by such devices, while the rest of us mugs ate cake.

Enter commercially available digital recorders ...

... the following is a comparison between the CD data and a very popular turntable rig costing in excess of $70K (us). No pressing information was afforded on the LP rip, although DR values hint they're relatively similar, potential pressing/mastering differences may explain certain discrepancies.

What they can't explain, however, is the very poor timing performance ...

CD=Orange LP=Blue.
View attachment 2060

Notice the LP peaks are set at higher frequencies, indicating the turntable was running too fast.

A closer look at 0-1K frequency range, quite audible ...
View attachment 2061

If this was my rip, I'd hit delete, and need rip again!

If this was my turntable, I'd look to fix the issue, and/or talk to the manufacturer, pronto! Perhaps it's missing the latest ultra-super-duper-high-end upgrade?

It should also be noted, the ripper obviously used a subsonic filter, which is too bad, b/c the resonance frequency may hint to other possible and relatively prevalent issues that plague many expensive 'tables.

its past midnight and I am tired as hell but I don't get your post here, i appreciate it but don't get it, could you please back up and explain to us what your graph mean and what we are looking at, thanks , kind of an explanation for dummies thing

 

[Thomas savage]

Always found you Brits using that word for cigarettes a bit distasteful.
Strange language you folks use.

Just to confuse you further sal, this is what a faggot is to me and I love them( though not the crap ones from the packet)