Legal fund for Reviewers/Erin?

[Thomas Lutro]

He's working on a redo, and that's fair given the missing feet in the first go. I'm hoping for a direct comparison between the two, like Amir did. I guess little change, and none relating to the "unique" features of the design, like dispersion.

 

[kemmler3D]

Here is a big question: has his intimidation worked? I can see every reviewer that reads what is going on here think twice about writing anything negative about a product.

I think there's a flip side to this, too.

Tekton used to be a decently appealing brand, now it is nuclear waste, and not because the products are seen as bad. Judging from the comments out there, Tekton is off the list for about 80% of commenters because of what Eric's done here.

Not because Tekton threatened to sue... but because Erin and you called them out on it. The community is NOT PLEASED to learn of this BS.

Do reviewers still have to worry about unreasonable brands getting nasty over reviews? Yes, but that's true in every industry, and has always been so.

But now I think the marginally-but-not-totally sociopathic brands are going to think twice before they try to intimidate reviewers. They won't want to end up like Tekton.

And if the audio reviewer's legal defense fund actually takes shape... maybe as an industry-wide thing, even the sociopaths will have to realize they're facing a very steep climb if they want to threaten anyone. The mere existence of the fund would be a deterrent... sort of like the cold war.

 

[RKV1]

I've met Amirm, he's not going to be intimidated. I feel sorry for EA's lawyer friend.

 

[Stoutblock]

I am not certain this assertion is wholly accurate.

Well they certainly are not trained to simply accept beliefs or opinions?

 

[kemmler3D]

Well they certainly are not trained to simply accept beliefs or opinions?

I think the difference between science and engineering is that scientists work at questioning & improving established models, or come up with new ones, and engineers apply established models to achieve a given outcome.

Some engineers end up getting attached to certain models or processes without considering alternatives, because they believe them to be useful. This can look a lot like accepting beliefs and opinions uncritically. It's not like scientists (or anyone else) doesn't suffer from this also.

I think it's just surprising when you hear an engineer say something like "All X are Y" because this is typically a fallacy or simple misstatement in real life, and we expect engineers to be logical and accurate. But if someone has the wrong mental model for a given situation, being an engineer is no help.

 

[JaMaSt]

Rocket Science seems like an odd profession for someone called a "flat-earther" by the fan boys on the Tekton YouTube channel....

 

[No one who matters]

Here is a big question: has his intimidation worked? I can see every reviewer that reads what is going on here think twice about writing anything negative about a product. I will continue of course as I have but others? I can see fingers shaking as they write anything remotely not complimentary. And not just about Tekton speakers. But everything.

If this is true, we have a major setback here that we need to repair.

Just spitballing here but these are my initial thoughts:

It depends. There are several models in the review space. An ASR, organized as an LLC but funded by donations, will likely be fine in their independence. That’s similar to the Consumer Reports model just not a 501(c).

For-profit models are different. And there are a few models there (i.e. Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, Erin, and others). It would be worthwhile to learn best practices from the more established players.

For the social media types, attention to their corp structure, insurance coverages, and who they are willing to review are all major considerations. A recalibration of the profit model is likely necessary, to include reserves for legal expenses, disclosures about independence and/or revenue sources, and specific policies before agreeing to review a thing are all new considerations (if not already pondered).

And lastly, it may be time to form a “Reviewer’s Society” of sorts, collecting dues and donations, perhaps getting backing from industry groups such as AES and for that matter product manufacturers. With legal funding to back up associated members, standards to adhere to, mission statements around independence and integrity and the like, those seeking candidness in their review model - and substantially all stakeholders - could benefit.

There will be bad actors in any endeavor. The question is not if they will behave badly, but when and to what degree. Having resources and fraternal support will go a long way towards limiting their impact upon others acting in good faith.

 

[Stoutblock]

Maybe it's because I'm in the engineering consulting world, but in my 25 years of experience, your gross generalization about engineers is wildly wrong.

Over 30 years as an engineer and another 10+ consulting and you certainly express yourself within my “generalIzation” of a typical engineer. Of course I could be wrong…

 

[Somafunk]

Oh no……the scientists and engineers are beginning to bicker amongst themselves…….this could get ugly.

 

[Stoutblock]

Oh no……the scientists and engineers are beginning to bicker amongst themselves…….this could get ugly.

Engineers are disciplined to stay within the box, scientists understand, define and hopefully expand the box, artist don’t need no f#%king box!

 

[tmtomh]

I think there's a flip side to this, too.

Tekton used to be a decently appealing brand, now it is nuclear waste, and not because the products are seen as bad. Judging from the comments out there, Tekton is off the list for about 80% of commenters because of what Eric's done here.

Not because Tekton threatened to sue... but because Erin and you called them out on it. The community is NOT PLEASED to learn of this BS.

I agree. I have been surprised at the proportion of critical comments on Alexander's recent YouTube videos on this matter. In my experience, an audiophile company head's YouTube videos are places where a lot of fans and defenders of the brand and the person tend to congregate and tend to outnumber the critics. But based on what I've seen, that's not the case with his recent videos.

 

[Mnyb]

I’m a practicing engineer I’ve found that I works as much with people as I do with tech .

We deliver a handful of projects every year and the work is to fit and adapt our products and software to the costumer needs . I spend months discovering how the current plant works having meetings with the clients engineering and their process operators discussing everything.

I’m not the project manager we have those to on the project and a sales persons. Before the project starts I have also advised sales in technical matters .

It’s a teamwork if engineering did not had social skills our company would be done for . So yes this is partly a myth that rational thinking people can’t be social

But it’s true to some extent I’ve gladly hand over negotiations to sales and project managers and try not to interfere there but I do something initiate changes and extra add on features that the customers then buy extending the scoop of the project.

But engineering on our side a suppliers has a very level and honest dialogue with our clients engineering .
They understand more than our sales people are comfortable to think about

So,it’s a multi level thing our sales talk to thier sales our project manager talks to thier project manager. I as an engineer engage with thier engineering.

I would say it’s a different kind of social skill .

 

[mps]

Here is a big question: has his intimidation worked? I can see every reviewer that reads what is going on here think twice about writing anything negative about a product. I will continue of course as I have but others? I can see fingers shaking as they write anything remotely not complimentary. And not just about Tekton speakers. But everything.

If this is true, we have a major setback here that we need to repair.

This makes me think about how Stereophile used to give negative reviews, like this one of the Crown Macro Reference power amplifier.

No music. This amplifier made no music. Not to say that it wasn't sonically impressive at times, but the music got lost somewhere between input and output.

IIRC, Crown threw a fit, and the amplifier was added to Recommended Components in spite of the negative review, and the reviewer soon disappeared from the masthead and blunt reviews faded away.

Moral: you can’t give in to bullying. The current Stereophile shows where that leads

 

[CedarX]

And lastly, it may be time to form a “Reviewer’s Society” of sorts, collecting dues and donations, perhaps getting backing from industry groups such as AES and for that matter product manufacturers

Isn’t this a reviewer of the reviewers? If a reviewer, say Erin, does not follow exactly the Reviewer’s Society standards—because, you know, he’s ‘just’ an individual reviewer—who decides and orders Erin to take his review down? How is it fundamentally different from Tekton’s intimidation?

If this is a path forward, it must be an industry trade association—the manufacturers policing their bullies. It should also let the justice system take care of blatantly malicious reviewers…

Any additional burden placed onto the reviewer is a bad solution.

 

[Mnyb]

This makes me think about how Stereophile used to give negative reviews, like this one of the Crown Macro Reference power amplifier.

IIRC, Crown threw a fit, and the amplifier was added to Recommended Components in spite of the negative review, and the reviewer soon disappeared from the masthead and blunt reviews faded away.

Moral: you can’t give in to bullying. The current Stereophile shows where that leads

Wow but that’s not thier main problem.

If you do sigthed “listening” to electronics most( all ? ) of the difference is imagined and in the reviewer head anyway. It’s essentials a fairytale about a product.

Manufacturers are probably happy with the charade as long as it a positive review and make thier brand look good

But if you invent a negative make believe fairytale about a product . The manufacturers are not going to be happy. Then you get called out for it

So if your “review” is the typical sighted listening and word salad about DAC’s and amps it can never be negative as it’s just bullshit to begin with.


If your going to be negative you need to augment with real facts and measurement that can’t be dismissed in the same manner .

Amir provides real and very correct measurement of the DUT and can call out the flaws they are there for everyone to see and can’t be dismissed.

 

[SIY]

I can see every reviewer that reads what is going on here think twice about writing anything negative about a product.

Not me. I don't publish things where my data aren't solid, so I happily ignore threats.

 

[CedarX]

Not me. I don't publish things where my data aren't solid, so I happily ignore threats.

Are you absolutely certain that your data is 100% bullet-proof with not even a hint of a possible objection?

I’m not a reviewer, but I would understand a reviewer hesitating writing negative comments: beyond the objective elements—e.g measurements—it’s a judgement call! Why Amir puts product A on his recommended list but not product B? Is product B’s review “negative” then? Will manufacturer B sue Amir because he did not recommend product B?

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

Hi,

I have not yet looked through all of the 58 pages, but I'll do whatever I can to help.

I might be from the other side of the fence, but I'm fighting for a free and independent press because I strongly believe that without a critical press, reviews are useless—blah, blah, with no meaning. I was a reviewer 40 years ago, and no manufacturer could ever force me to write against my beliefs.

We might not always come to the same conclusion looking at the measurements that I see here or in Erins video, but at least we have something to discuss and that's always a good thing.
Unfortunately, I did not see the original video, so I'm not sure what the problem is, but threatening a reviewer is never a clever idea. You can be sure that pretty soon this will be known to every reviewer here in Europe.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I’m not a reviewer, but I would understand a reviewer hesitating writing negative comments: beyond the objective elements—e.g measurements ...

If there's any positive effect of this fiasco going forward, I personally believe that would be one. I can see an explanation of measurements, but IMO the differences between rooms (acoustic spaces), playback levels, individual preferences and individual hearing abilities all roll together to destroy the usefulness of the subjective narrative.

Subjective comments are like sugar: they leave a sweet taste in your mouth, but there's not much nutrition in them.

Jim

 

[Doodski]

I’m a practicing engineer I’ve found that I works as much with people as I do with tech .

We deliver a handful of projects every year and the work is to fit and adapt our products and software to the costumer needs . I spend months discovering how the current plant works having meetings with the clients engineering and their process operators discussing everything.

I’m not the project manager we have those to on the project and a sales persons. Before the project starts I have also advised sales in technical matters .

It’s a teamwork if engineering did not had social skills our company would be done for . So yes this is partly a myth that rational thinking people can’t be social

But it’s true to some extent I’ve gladly hand over negotiations to sales and project managers and try not to interfere there but I do something initiate changes and extra add on features that the customers then buy extending the scoop of the project.

But engineering on our side a suppliers has a very level and honest dialogue with our clients engineering .
They understand more than our sales people are comfortable to think about

So,it’s a multi level thing our sales talk to thier sales our project manager talks to thier project manager. I as an engineer engage with thier engineering.

I would say it’s a different kind of social skill .

I've worked with engineers operating as technical instructors working for manufacturers teaching me the ins and outs of mechatronics devices, as a coordinator for a HVAC engineer, as a QA/QC technician with about 14 engineers, @ a manufacturing operation(s) for oil and gas and in all cases I found that there where some real diamonds and some anti socials too. It's life and there is a mish mash of people engineering just like in any professional occupation. It's life and nothing is written in stone.