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Does the 708P gets much louder than Genelec 8050b?
How do they compare in general?
Specs say the 708p gets 2dB louder. I'm guessing the 8050b will probably measure a bit better, but that's tbd.
Does the 708P gets much louder than Genelec 8050b?
How do they compare in general?
Since we are talking about SPL, would you guys say the 708i/708P (crossed over with subwoofers at 80 Hz or higher) will be able to provide "all the SPL that you might need" in a small room (for movies and music) where the listening distance is around 7 ft? Room size is about 12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high. Note that this is for someone who listens really loud.
Yes this is interesting, there really seem to be two groups, one will prefer speakers, the other one headphones. I'm leaning to the latter, maybe because i'm using headphones since early childhood (different early conditioning of hearing?). An exception is (so far) surround sound.
My main beef is with the "high" H3 around 200-300 Hz, H2 around crossover point (yes, even when considering masking) and maybe the rising H5 at ~150 Hz.If you add a sub(or two) at 80hrz and high pass the monitor, you now have a pretty capable 3-way don't you?
Not to mention, that room is tiny by the way.
What I am really interested in why you are so discouraged about the Harmonic distortion levels? What is that you are looking for and why? So many folks pilling on this on this thread on the HD. Doesn't seem to correlate with my experiences, nor anything I have ever read that is suitable to quote here. So what gives?
Sure, but I've yet to find a 2-way that's no massively worse in that respect than any decent 3-way.IMD can not be inferred, it is a different measurement with a multitude of factors that would affect it.
For me it's better with headphones in most cases, but that (apart from my mentioned "conditioning") may be due to my rather mediocre listening room. I'm planning to move when I can afford to retire, but this will take more time than I thought. When I've arrived at this point, I can finally have a dedicated listening room for stereo, that would not deteriorate the sound (and hopefully I'll then still hear well enough to appreciate the difference). For now, the ability to have crossfeed when needed helps a bit (and/or the angled arrangement of drivers in my BD T1 Mk2), and with not-so-big classical (and jazz) ensembles, tonality and detail matters more (for me) than soundstage.I agree. I like headphones fine on music made for headphones, IDM for example, but I can only enjoy symphonic music on speakers and only if there is a lot of dynamic ability with little distortion.
Since we are talking about SPL, would you guys say the 708i/708P (crossed over with subwoofers at 80 Hz or higher) will be able to provide "all the SPL that you might need" in a small room (for movies and music) where the listening distance is around 7 ft? Room size is about 12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high. Note that this is for someone who listens really loud.
My main beef is with the "high" H3 around 200-300 Hz, H2 around crossover point (yes, even when considering masking) and maybe the rising H5 at ~150 Hz.
I mean, compared to the way cheaper and smaller 8030C (whose LF problems would mainly be solved by the sub), this is quite ugly. Even if 1% really isn't that bad (probably just above the sine masking values).
Sure, but I've yet to find a 2-way that's no massively worse in that respect than any decent 3-way.
I have an updated version of the purifi speaker and it now has much less distortion.The Purifi woofer is "state of the art and world class and EXPENSIVE" and yet you can see how the JBl woofer has better HD levels.
@mitchco have written before that there's an "industry standard" for mixing (mastering?) with calibrated 83 dB SPL that is often used, which is important information for accurate tonal balance during playback as well.
I completely agree here, but that rules out a huge number of potential choices, depending on where one lives.Like so many products one needs to test drive, at this price and performance you must try a few speakers at home.
I think this is a fundamental limit in testing one sample, particularly of inexpensive units.If I didn't have the other speaker to cross check with, I'd just write this tweeter/speaker off as junk.
Agreed. While I'd never wish for Amir to spend needless time with double measurements or troubleshooting speakers for potential faults, it sure would be nice if the manufacturers would shed some light on how they solve practical issues like that.I think this is a fundamental limit in testing one sample, particularly of inexpensive units.
It would be pretty normal for wide production tolerances.
Everything you said it true, but let's say that I find reasonable to expect much better from 3500$/4000€ per pair speakers. Non linear distortion perception being a poorly researched domain, just aiming for the least amount is the only way.Without question, Genelec makes truly superb speakers.
They also have a knack for ultra low harmonic distortion levels. I really feel that that spec is important, yet as long as it is not broken, it is more of a mental game than a reality. Turn your attention toward Port velocity, which is ONLY a problem once it is overloaded and once overload is suppressed any attempt to lower it further has no practical effect. I suspect HD is similar. While this varies with frequency and order, is really not the issue we make of it. Trouble is it is REALLY easy to measure it so nearly any reviewer using measurements is going to do just that, so now we see it all the time and get used to thinking (over thing?) about it more than it is worth. (Stereophile magazine, interestingly doesn't use HD testing in their reviews, which feature some nice comprehensive measurements)
Here are a few screenshots from here at ASR of HD testing.
One thing is look at how low that $300 pair, JBL A130 is - especially that 5" woofer, right? Crazy.
That Genelec 8030c is very overloaded in the bass and midbass at 96db and that is likely to get MUCH worse fast trying to go higher, at 86 it is truly spectacular.
I threw in the ELAC 3 way as an example of how a 3 way is not always a HD/(IMD?) solution.
The Purifi woofer is "state of the art and world class and EXPENSIVE" and yet you can see how the JBl woofer has better HD levels. I am not saying that the Purifi is bad, just that maybe HD testing is not really a prime indicator as this woofer so far has been highly reviewed elsewhere.
If you or any reader passing by this post, are not already a fan/reader. I like to read the driver tests at these two sites for general info. The sites testing can not be compared against each other, only within each site to ensure a similar testing method and parallel results. (there are other good sites as well)
1. https://audioxpress.com/categories/vc-testbench
2. https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements
Based only on the HD testing and price, I would buy the JBL A130, EQ/DSP it well and add the required subs (subs ought to be added to every speaker listed below in nearly all use cases IMHO)*
Now while I would like to see the results of a test, I would certainly never buy a speaker based only on an HD test, so now what?
Like so many products one needs to test drive, at this price and performance you must try a few speakers at home. ASR and a few other places can guide you close and then you make the final selections based on personal needs (some of those needs will be hard to know in advance).
*By the way the A130 does in fact sound/measure truly excellent EQ'd and room corrected at my home, it does sound very, very low in distortion when high passed to my subs.
JBL 708P
View attachment 110585
Genelec 8030c
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JBL A130 (passive $300 USD retail currently $180 on sale)
View attachment 110587
ELAC UB5 (passive three way)
View attachment 110588
Neumann KH310A
View attachment 110589
Purifi Prototype (passive, ported/ not passive radiator)
View attachment 110590
2.5% is a lot but it is a narrow spectrum which may be the reason it wasn't audible to me.
My measurements are all at 86 dBSPL (with some rare exceptions). This provides a good balance between good SNR and not stressing the speaker.@amirm Perhaps speakers should be measured at "reference level" i.e. 83 dB SPL And then again at perceived as twice as loud which is another 10 dB SPL which will show any nonlinearities as the SPL goes up.
Also the 708P is not happy at 96dB as Amir correctly wrote in his reviews:
View attachment 110303
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I personally would rather prefer distortion in the lower bass where its less audible (plus you can lower it by subs and/or near front wall placement and according room filters) and not creating IMD mess at the very important and audible mids at a 3-way design. Also on sound quality aspects I prefer the KH310, which can be partially seen also on the FR and HD plots, unfortunately Sound & Recording has only tested the 705P as it would be interesting to compare its IMD plot to the one of the KH310.