Is transient response the most important thing for the perceived audio quality in a system ?

[IPunchCholla]

My target is exactly that - 95db max SPL, my normal listening levels (average volume) is around 75db, and allowing for 20db peaks takes me to 95db.... but I like to provide headroom beyond that (up to circa 105db) .... just because some music has that sort of dynamics - even when they are brief!

With regards to distance from speakers - I would suggest that this varies, and depends on room setup - I listen at 2.4m.

But one of the things that years of listening to / owning electrostatics taught me, is that transients are a micro as well as a macro phenomenon - that instantaneous no lag response is as much part of a bow on a violin string at its softest, as it is that of a trumpet at full blast (which for authenticity, would require more than 95db! - thems get seriously loud!).

And the really noticeable thing that will cause surprise for a multitude of listeners, is the micro details when it is quiet.... the mom's voice test, the soft background sounds in a movie filmed in a natural environment; shoes on autumn leaves, wind in the trees, the stuff people don't normally notice, which becomes noticeable simply because all of a sudden it sounds real... suspension of disbelief is no longer required... it sounds real.

I love the fireworks, and the loud explosions too.... most halfway decent systems can do those impressively.... show me a system that can do the soft transients right, and you are showing me true high end.

(yes I really did at one point run an all electrostatic surround setup - it lasted only 4 or 5 years before WAF issues pushed it out.... sound quality was stunning.)

Out of curiosity, do you have any FR files of your setup?

 

[Axo1989]

I essentially agree with you.

Even after we would have decided which sub-woofer (SW) and woofer (WO) to be used in our audio setup, I believe it is really important and critical to establish time alignment between the two, at most suitable XO Fq, with most suitable XO slopes; low-pass (high-cut) for SW and high-pass (low-cut) for WO.

Even having rather steep slope filters, we always have Fq window where SW and WO would audibly sing together, and therefore the tuning of transient behaviors around that Fq window is critical for excellent total transient response of your audio system.

We can semi-objectively observe by our eyes using Adobe Audition's 3D (time-gain-Fq) spectrum of the recorded sound for such tuning procedures for;
1. XO Fq selection,
2. XO filter type and slope selections,
3. Gain matching/adjustment between SW and WO,
4. Time alignment adjustment in msec precision.

As for precision time alignment between SW and WO, I utilized rather primitive but validated and reliable "time-shifted tone burst measurement method" as shared in my post here.

For measurement and tuning of XO configuration for SW and WO, together with transient behavior observation/confirmation, Adobe Audition's 3D (time-gain-Fq) spectrum has been a powerful tool in my case, as shared in my project thread;
- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #497, #503, #507

Since I know that one photo or one diagram is worth 1,000 or more words, let me share here only two diagrams selected from my project thread on this issue of SW-WO best matching for excellent total transient response;
View attachment 287481

View attachment 287480
Having these and other intensive objective measurements and of course also intensive subjective hearing sessions, in my setup with SW Yamaha YST-SW1000 and WO Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in NS-1000's sealed cabinet, I decided the XO Fq (50 Hz) and the filters as summarized here and here on my project thread.

I believe this is also true for other SP drivers, WO-to-Midrange-to-Tweeter-to-SuperTweeter, as I have intensively done in my multichannel project. Please refer to my summary post here here and here.

In any way, various tuning towards better "transient behavior/response" of our audio setup does "matter" and is important for the "perceived audio quality in a system" (the wording of the thread title here).

I've read your main thread but should add here, nice illustration of time-alignment with your subwoofers.

That's the most common case for most people, but time alignment of drivers in a multi-driver system is obviously relevant to reproduction of transients. I'm always interested though how we are tolerant of the (per John Atkinson) time-coherent (in the millisecond range) but not time-aligned step response we see in most speakers. I wonder if users of full-range electrostats or active crossovers just smile to themselves.

 

[dlaloum]

Out of curiosity, do you have any FR files of your setup?

No...

I do have a calibrated measurement mic, but my mic pre is an old one requiring that I re-commission my old PC.... or purchase a new mic...

so it waits for the day I get a "round tuit"

 

[IPunchCholla]

No...

I do have a calibrated measurement mic, but my mic pre is an old one requiring that I re-commission my old PC.... or purchase a new mic...

so it waits for the day I get a "round tuit"

Darn, it would be cool to compare.

 

[dualazmak]

I've read your main thread but should add here, nice illustration of time-alignment with your subwoofers.
That's the most common case for most people, but time alignment of drivers in a multi-driver system is obviously relevant to reproduction of transients.

OK, do you mean these?

Spoiler: Time-shift tone burst method for precision time alignment, especially between sub-woofers and other SP drivers

For details, please visit my post here on my project thread.

Spoiler: Energy peak matching method for precision time alignment, especially between sub-woofers and other SP drivers

For details, please visit my post here on my project thread.

And, please let me share again links to my relevant posts on my project thread;

- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-1_ Precision pulse wave matching method: #493
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-2_ Energy peak matching method: #494
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-3_ Precision single sine wave matching method in 0.1 msec accuracy: #504, #507

- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #497, #503, #507

- Identification of sound reflecting plane/wall by strong excitation of SP unit and room acoustics: #498

- Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage: #520

- Not only the precision (0.1 msec level) time alignment over all the SP drivers but also SP facing directions and sound-deadening space behind the SPs plus behind our listening position would be critically important for effective (perfect?) disappearance of speakers: #687

 

[solderdude]

Music consists of transients.
Transducers can have over-shoot (always at certain frequencies), or undershoot and when a crossover is present it may be smeared in time.
Transients can occur at many frequencies and depending on how well a transducer reacts (the first wave-front) it may sound a bit 'off' or not.
Also the recording itself and used compressor(s) may have an influence.

Is it most important or not important is a silly question as both are the case.
Also, rise/fall and decay of instruments is very different of electronics and of transducers. It is the latter that is problematic and not just at the highest frequencies.
The highest frequencies (at the highest possible signal level) is usually not the 'limiting' factor nor the culprit.

 

[Tangband]

Music consists of transients.
Transducers can have over-shoot (always at certain frequencies), or undershoot and when a crossover is present it may be smeared in time.
Transients can occur at many frequencies and depending on how well a transducer reacts (the first wave-front) it may sound a bit 'off' or not.
Also the recording itself and used compressor(s) may have an influence.

Is it most important or not important is a silly question as both are the case.
Also, rise/fall and decay of instruments is very different of electronics and of transducers. It is the latter that is problematic and not just at the highest frequencies.
The highest frequencies (at the highest possible signal level) is usually not the 'limiting' factor nor the culprit.

Thanks for the reply - you say that for speakers there IS a problem with fast transients . If you read the thread, you can see that some dont agree with this. I do agree with your statement.

The conclusion of ”If” there is a real problem in a loudspeakers transient response - the conclusion of this should be that spinorama and frequency response is not enough to explain how a loudspeaker sound ? Maybe the transient response is of the same importance ?

Would you say that metal cones are better for this in a midbass driver ( no deformation of the cone at transient music ) , than a paper or polyprop cone ?

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks for the reply - you say that for speakers there IS a problem with fast transients . If you read the thread, you can see that some dont agree with this. I do agree with your statement.

The conclusion of ”If” there is a real problem in a loudspeakers transient response - the conclusion of this should be that spinorama and frequency response is not enough to explain how a loudspeaker sound ? Maybe the transient response is of the same importance ?

Would you say that metal cones are better for this in a midbass driver ( no deformation of the cone at transient music ) , than a paper or polyprop cone ?

Once upon a time, it was common to record a Square wave through a product, and then to analyse it to find how well it handles transients...

Very few speakers were ever capable of reproducing a 1kHz square wave with any pretense of "squareness"

Quad ESL63 was famous for passing a good square wave through.

The key to transient response seems to be very very low moving mass

 

[solderdude]

Thanks for the reply - you say that for speakers there IS a problem with fast transients . If you read the thread, you can see that some dont agree with this. I do agree with your statement.

The conclusion of ”If” there is a real problem in a loudspeakers transient response - the conclusion of this should be that spinorama and frequency response is not enough to explain how a loudspeaker sound ? Maybe the transient response is of the same importance ?

Would you say that metal cones are better for this in a midbass driver ( no deformation of the cone at transient music ) , than a paper or polyprop cone ?

It could be an issue in speakers and headphone drivers (over- and under-shoot).
Compression occurs at louder levels so compression is also level dependent.

A spinorama does not tell me how a speaker will sound in my room. It will only give some info about how much EQ is needed and if the performance is anywhere near reference quality without EQ.

I don't think cone/dome material is leading, it is more about how the material is being used.
Of course rigid materials might be prone to overshoot/resonance at certain frequencies more so than softer materials.

Whether or not all needed measurements are made to characterize any device is always the question.
It is never one plot or number that characterizes an audio device but many different measurements at various levels and circumstances might.

This is THE reason why 'subjective oriented' folks don't trust measurements.

 

[dlaloum]

It could be an issue in speakers and headphone drivers (over- and under-shoot).
Compression occurs at louder levels so compression is also level dependent.

A spinorama does not tell me how a speaker will sound in my room. It will only give some info about how much EQ is needed and if the performance is anywhere near reference quality without EQ.

I don't think cone/dome material is leading, it is more about how the material is being used.
Of course rigid materials might be prone to overshoot/resonance at certain frequencies more so than softer materials.

Whether or not all needed measurements are made to characterize any device is always the question.
It is never one plot or number that characterizes an audio device but many different measurements at various levels and circumstances might.

This is THE reason why 'subjective oriented' folks don't trust measurements.

Electrostatics do the low SPL stuff with ever so much ease.... but as soon as the SPL's rise, you start to get compression.... (and depending on the design, self destructive arcing!)

Current measurements are not suited to providing a simple "quantum" that defines transients. It would be nice if there was a single figure like SINAD to define transient behaviour - I think it would be more indicative of overall speaker/system quality than SINAD is!

 

[René - Acculution.com]

Thanks for the reply - you say that for speakers there IS a problem with fast transients . If you read the thread, you can see that some dont agree with this. I do agree with your statement.

The conclusion of ”If” there is a real problem in a loudspeakers transient response - the conclusion of this should be that spinorama and frequency response is not enough to explain how a loudspeaker sound ? Maybe the transient response is of the same importance ?

Would you say that metal cones are better for this in a midbass driver ( no deformation of the cone at transient music ) , than a paper or polyprop cone ?

Assuming linear behavior and other things, the frequency response (magnitude and phase) gives you what you need to calculate any transient behavior. Just looking at the frequency response curves will not directly give you the transient response, they only give the steady-state response to sinusoidal signals, but the information about transient behavior is in there.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Current measurements are not suited to providing a simple "quantum" that defines transients. It would be nice if there was a single figure like SINAD to define transient behaviour - I think it would be more indicative of overall speaker/system quality than SINAD is!

This is where I become confused, and wonder about linguistic drift. I believe you when you when you describe what you hear with ESLs. I also assume that would show up in the measurements. It is also my understanding that what you are describing in terms of transients is fully characterized.

Transients and frequency response are fully transformable, one to the other. as @RayDunzl demonstrated with his recording of a single click and the calculation of transients based on a sweep and getting the same result. It is also well know via Nyquist. Isn’t to disagree with this akin to saying ”I think Ampere was wrong.”? I will also note that looking at the transient response from those tests, that I know that his speakers are much flatter in FR than mine and would sound more detailed.

So isn’t FR/transient response a very similar metric to SINAD in that it will tell you at one power setting an awful lot about how the speaker will sound, but it does not fully characterize the speaker? In fact, if FR is truly flat and horizontal, don’t we know that the transient response is perfect, that there is no distortion and no resonances (at that position at that power setting)? Where the spinorama comes in is for measuring how the sound is different in different places, to see how flat it is everywhere (not that we want it flat everywhere necessarily since most of us listen in rooms and don’t like a ton echoes). Where IMD, THD, noise, phase, etc. measurements come in is in determining the WHY of a non-flat, non-horizontal frequency response.

So my understanding of the title of the thread is that it is a non-sense question at the technical level, in that FR and transient response can be taken as interchangeable, unless people are using transients in a way that means something besides the shape of an audio waveform.

 

[tuga]

I agree that a lot of people conflate dynamic range & peak SPL, with transient response....

Maybe even how we perceive transients in recorded music with transient response.

 

[fpitas]

So my understanding of the title of the thread is that it is a non-sense question at the technical level, in that FR and transient response can be taken as interchangeable, unless people are using transients in a way that means something besides the shape of an audio waveform.

Yup

 

[Tangband]

Once upon a time, it was common to record a Square wave through a product, and then to analyse it to find how well it handles transients...

Very few speakers were ever capable of reproducing a 1kHz square wave with any pretense of "squareness"

Quad ESL63 was famous for passing a good square wave through.

The key to transient response seems to be very very low moving mass

This sounds very logic.
The question is, will a similar midbass driver with a very low moving mass sound better than a midbass with higher moving mass then ?

I guess it depends, because in the acoustic world theres ofcourse no free lunch. One has to trade low bass or higher transient performance/ better frequency response and sensitivity , or use very different motors or/and suspension of the cone. At least in a passive speaker, but….

Maybe in a very big fourway active dsp speaker one could use drivers with very low moving mass ( for their size ), strong motors and high sensitivity, to reach 20-20000 Hz ?. This could be optimized for very high sensitivity, and then corrected with eq in the dsp crossover to make the frequency response flat. A 18 inch bass, 12 inch midbass, 5 inch midrange and a hornloaded 1 inch tweeter comes to mind… a PA speaker ?

 

[NTK]

...
The key to transient response seems to be very very low moving mass

This sounds very logic.
...

Except that it is wrong. The mass of the the diaphragm affects the driver sensitivity, not the bandwidth. The sound pressure generated is proportional to the acceleration of the diaphragm. Higher mass → lower acceleration → lower SPL. Bandwidth, i.e. transient response, stays the same.

A fast driver needs a light cone. Or does it?

purifi-audio.com

 

[Cbdb2]

The importance of subs in transients is overstated. At 80hz it takes over 3 msecs for the waveform to reach its peak, the transient is over by then. Listen to a drum just thru your sub. (or a LPF) How much attack do you hear? How much of anything do you hear (unless its a kick drum)?

A good reference on attack manipulation from a leading plug in designer.
From https://www.waves.com/drum-transients-shaping-tips

"Transients, by nature, will typically carry more high-frequency energy than low frequency energy. This is because transient energy occurs over a very short period of time, and lower frequencies take longer to develop due to their wavelengths. The higher-frequency attack also provides important localization cues that allow the sustain signal to form in a more recognizable manner; again providing a "call to attention." This is quite apparent in drums and percussive instruments, but also present in other musical instruments, to greater or lesser degrees."

 

[fpitas]

Except that it is wrong. The mass of the the diaphragm affects the driver sensitivity, not the bandwidth. The sound pressure generated is proportional to the acceleration of the diaphragm. Higher mass → lower acceleration → lower SPL. Bandwidth, i.e. transient response, stays the same.

A fast driver needs a light cone. Or does it?

purifi-audio.com

We're trotting out all the internet factoids today. It's like playing whack-a-mole.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

This sounds very logic.
The question is, will a similar midbass driver with a very low moving mass sound better than a midbass with higher moving mass then ?

I guess it depends, because in the acoustic world theres ofcourse no free lunch. One has to trade low bass or higher transient performance/ better frequency response and sensitivity , or use very different motors or/and suspension of the cone. At least in a passive speaker, but….

Maybe in a very big fourway active dsp speaker one could use drivers with very low moving mass ( for their size ), strong motors and high sensitivity, to reach 20-20000 Hz ?. This could be optimized for very high sensitivity, and then corrected with eq in the dsp crossover to make the frequency response flat. A 18 inch bass, 12 inch midbass, 5 inch midrange and a hornloaded 1 inch tweeter comes to mind… a PA speaker ?

It may sound logic to you. Yet it is wrong. Again please do at least some basic studies into Fourier series and maybe the Fourier terms of a square wave. Compare the terms of the infinite series to the one with a bandwidth limit of 20khz and maybe assuming a flat (and in phase) speaker. Maybe compute the difference (error) of the two and tell us if you would hear the difference (error)? Then continue to look at non ideal (flat, in phase) speakers.

So we can stop fantasizing please and put this to rest.

 

[Snarfie]

Regading transients i find the insight of Roger Nichols (audio engineer of Steely Dan) interesting. He claims that transients al already dissepearing when recorded on analog tape within houres to a certain degree. Did read this article maney years ago a started to collect older CD'd (if possible first pressings) that captured as close as possible the existing transients at the time producing the CD.

Nichols,:
if you record something on a piece of analog tape and play it back later the same day, the same program is not on the tape. And there’s nothing so far that anybody’d been able to do about that, you know, like those little magnetic particles are made to be able to wander around and they do so by themselves while the tape is just sitting there. I’ve made DAT copies when I’m cutting tracks, and then have an automation snap shot of the mix and then later that evening put the tape back on, play it back, compare it with the Dat, and there’s already starting to be a difference. And by the time a week or two weeks go by and it’s time to mix, a lot of the transients have started to disappear.

Link: http://pieralessandri.com/ROGER-NICHOLS-interview

Last week i could get hold for just 1euro Carole King Tapastry album released in 1971 an remasterd in 1996 i guess from the original analog tape so no Vinyl master. It contains transients who are atleast preserved till 1996. Priceless..