Is there really no audible difference between different DACs?

[SIY]

You are being made fun of because you are talking about fancy power supplies for audiophile gear, on the wrong kind of forum.

And the unlikely "blind" test.

 

[WreckTangle]

Who said anything about fancy? have i even once used the word audiophile until now or tried to advertise anything?

all i have said is that i have noticed an improvement in sound quality when i change the power supply either to my Aune x1s using the xp1... or! the ifi ipower feeding a bunch of different dacs... i have also supplied links with measurements

Now i get it a lot of people come here trying to convince you that they can hear something you cant and hey that probably gets pretty tiring after a while but i have not tried to convince anyone here of anything

It seems to me though that there is a lot of passive aggressiveness on this forum which i think is unfortunate
i also feel i been treated in a quite hostile manner.. for no good reason and there has been assumptions made about my person

I would suggest some of the readers of this thread goes back to the beginning and read it from the beginning i have been nothing but cordial and have treated everyone here with respect

 

[WreckTangle]

You are being made fun of because you are talking about fancy power supplies for audiophile gear, on the wrong kind of forum.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-you-need-linear-power-supply-for-dacs.7021/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-the-hdplex-200w-supply.7713/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ar-power-supply-review-and-measurements.1849/

Conclusion is always the same. Using a fancy or linear supply, only goes back to showing no benefit with the DACs Amir has tested.
If the supposed benefit can't be measured in analog domain... it simply isn't there. Better ripple/cleaner power won't help.

Okay good to know

So if competently made dacs makes no audio difference and power supplies wont make them sound any different either

Why do some people hear it differently though? i get that you might want something to sound better if it costed you more money but for me personally its not just about hearing an improvement more like hearing a difference between different dacs

is there a way to work on well removing that? can i learn not to hear a difference so my brain aint playing tricks on me
id love for every dac to sound exactly the same and for there to be no difference if i change the power supply

Now when i know its just my brain playing tricks on me!

 

[SIY]

is there a way to work on well removing that? can i learn not to hear a difference so my brain aint playing tricks on me
id love for every dac to sound exactly the same and for there to be no difference if i change the power supply

Now when i know its just my brain playing tricks on me!

Start by reading this.

 

[solderdude]

When one connects a NOT suited power supply to a DAC chances are this can clearly be heard to not being audible depending on the ripple.

People here are not really interested in personal findings when they are not accompanied with some evidence (anecdotal does not count).
Read the many perception threads to find out why you are greeted with uh huh's.

Why do some people hear it differently though? i get that you might want something to sound better if it costed you more money but for me personally its not just about hearing an improvement more like hearing a difference between different dacs

You are not the only one... I too can hear differences between well designed DACs (don't buy, test or own 'special' DACs)... until they are properly level matched and the test is blind.
With DACs proper blind testing is really hard to do for several reasons.

The reasons why fancy power supplies exist is because manufacturers want to show of the lowest numbers, tell porkies in the hope to make a lot of sales. Their livelyhood and that of their employees depends on making money.

learn about blind testing, level matching, statistically enough attempts and statistics themselves.
Then you learn how to test properly.

You may also find not all DACs sound the same but when the test is proper at least you will actually know and not just think you know.

And ... don't take our word on it... start searching how to properly test and then do that. Much more enlighting (see what I did there) than anything else.

 

[WreckTangle]

What if i owned two identical dacs and heard them at different volumes would i think they sounded different? might i think one had a bigger soundstage etc?

Oh and is the bigger soundstage i hear with the musicstreamer hd my imagination or is that reality? or is the smaller soundstage of my v90 dac reality? and if the musicstreamer hd aint reality and i imagined the bigger soundstage by that logic i could imagine the soundstage to be even bigger if i wanted right? if it is all inside my head all i had to do was hire a hypnotist and have him or her tell me that i just bought a very good power supply for my dac really high performance and then suddently it would sound better?

There seems to be a finality if you follow the scientific thread all the way through at some point well there is no way to make something sound better there is no way to make the audio anymore life like we reached the end of the dacs they cannot be improved further and make any audible improvements same with headphone amplifiers right? Headphones speakers you should be able to create one that is according to measurements perfectly flat right? that represents reality perfectly

at that point what point is there to make anymore measurements? in fact while this might be sacrilegious if dacs have reached a point today where we cannot hear a difference why continue to do measurements?

I feel like this entire conversation is just one gigantic catch 22

Personally my only complain is that i have had to pay for the privilege to fool my own brain

I have no calms about fooling myself being able to make something sound better just because my brain has told me that... in fact now when i discoverd this all i want to do is learn how to consciously manipulate it

 

[Willem]

Yes you will think the louder one is the better one.

 

[SIY]

What if i owned two identical dacs and heard them at different volumes would i think they sounded different? might i think one had a bigger soundstage etc?

Common salesman trick in audio shops is to boost the volume of the amp they want to sell you by 0.5-1dB or so. You don't perceive that as a loudness difference, but rather as the slightly louder one being "clearer, more open, bigger soundstage."

 

[pma]

I use this unit (below) for level matched A-B tests. Even for DAC tests. Sometimes there is a difference, sometimes not. Usually not, but ther are exceptions. Depends on music sample and rest of the audio chain as well.

 

[oldsysop]

 

[WreckTangle]

Can speakers or headphones ever be as transparent as a dac?

 

[Willem]

Almost certainly not, as they operate at the interface of the electrical and the mechanical. And things mechanical have mass, and hence slower response, vibrations etc.

 

[pma]

Can speakers or headphones ever be as transparent as a dac?

This question, though looking logical, does not make much sense in real listening.

 

[WreckTangle]

But why keep making measurements then ? how badly would a dac have to measure not to become transparent?

 

[solderdude]

Oh and is the bigger soundstage i hear with the musicstreamer hd my imagination or is that reality? or is the smaller soundstage of my v90 dac reality?

It is reality when you ask someone else to swap (or pretend to swap) the DACs (that need to be level matched somehow) and you can reliably tell them apart in soundstage.
Until then, I assume you know which DAC is playing, it MIGHT be all in your head.

There seems to be a finality if you follow the scientific thread all the way through at some point well there is no way to make something sound better there is no way to make the audio anymore life like we reached the end of the dacs they cannot be improved further and make any audible improvements same with headphone amplifiers right?

Yes, you can do that using EQ, room equalization, experimenting with positioning, adding effect boxes (filterless NOS, tube amps or amps with deliberate deviations, different speakers, headphones, better recordings..

at that point what point is there to make anymore measurements?

To confirm if it has proper operation under certain circumstances or to independently check data supplied by sellers.


The rest what you wrote is silly stuff that seems to be triggering some childish responses.

 

[solderdude]

But why keep making measurements then ? how badly would a dac have to measure not to become transparent?

You tell us... that's the interesting part isn't it... perception and borders of audibility. Test tones or music ? What music ? What spread between hearing abilities between people ?

The answer where that point exactly is will depend on the person you ask.

 

[WreckTangle]

What other operation would there be except you know listening to it? and why care... if a seller says okay this dac is even better it has even better specs... though hey you wont be able to hear it!

why would anyone buy it anyway even if the data was accurate and who would be upset if the company lied ? personally i would not be that upset... Oh wow that guy lied about the data of that dac ... though even if the data was true we would not be able to hear it anyway

I thought we had concluded that dacs are audibly transparent? so hearing ability really shouldnt matter if that is the case

And i dont think that is silly at all if we conclude through blind testing that the soundstage through the music streamer hd is the same as the v90 that means the bigger soundstage in the music streamer hd was all inside my head

that is proof you can directly improve the audio quality by just using your brain and i find it an exciting prospect if that could be done consciously

Rather than going out spending more money buying speakers and headphones and experimenting with tubes in a way all i am doing is just swapping out dacs for something else

So what is the real difference there? someone who buys a couple dacs thinks they sound different maybe buy a " cleaner" power supply because that will make it sound even more different

Or buy a couple headphones speakers sprinkle distortion over ur music with tubes because it sounds different only difference i can see is that you can measure the second one but it will still cost you money its not free and its not really making ur music anymore transparent or life like its not about improving audio quality its about creating a difference which is fundamentaly what your doing when your buying a new dac or a new power supply

 

[solderdude]

Can speakers or headphones ever be as transparent as a dac?

No, they will never be even close to it.

 

[WreckTangle]

Personally? i am happy with my setup i have no goals to do anything further with it

but i feel its important to come to terms with the fact that this is not a pursuit for transparency that dog is long since buried

The only real differentiation between you purchasing a new set of speakers and someone else buying another dac
Is that the person with the speakers can rest easy at night knowing there is an actual audible difference that it is measurable

its really just a question about definition

 

[solderdude]

What other operation would there be except you know listening to it? and why care... if a seller says okay this dac is even better it has even better specs... though hey you wont be able to hear it!

You either want to know or don't care.
In the first case test properly
in the last case, enjoy what you do and do not bother to tell people here they are wrong.

why would anyone buy it anyway even if the data was accurate and who would be upset if the company lied ? personally i would not be that upset... Oh wow that guy lied about the data of that dac ... though even if the data was true we would not be able to hear it anyway

You either want to know or don't care.
In the first case one can confirm using measurements.
in the last case... stop whining about it and buy whatever floats your boat.

I thought we had concluded that dacs are audibly transparent? so hearing ability really shouldnt matter if that is the case

You concluded that we concluded that but we didn't conclude that at all. What we said is that all competently designed DACs cannot be told apart in well conducted blind tests and when they do they measure substantially different.

And i dont think that is silly at all if we conclude through blind testing that the soundstage through the music streamer hd is the same as the v90 that means the bigger soundstage in the music streamer hd was all inside my head
that is proof you can directly improve the audio quality by just using your brain and i find it an exciting prospect if that could be done consciously

What a strange conclusion you made. I'll put it down to childish footstamping ... again.

Rather than going out spending more money buying speakers and headphones and experimenting with tubes in a way all i am doing is just swapping out dacs for something else

I have no idea what you have been doing and why. All I know pretty sure is that you do not test in a scientifically sound way and had connected a not well suited power supply once (the measurements showed this)

The rest of your post was drawing incorrect conclusions triggered by childish footstamping because you are not believed on your pretty eyes.