Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[Palladium]

You're lucky you escaped with your brain intact. Now if you just want spiffy RCAs, you can be happy with something like Blue Jeans for less than $100.

$15K cables to hook to RCA jack connector blocks that came out from some Chinese factory for 20 cents each.

 

[MattHooper]

So I had to Google "2112 Music". It came back with some video of a Rush "overture"... is that the 2112 in question? If so, I must concur with MattHooper.

Yep. Not exactly chick music.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Yep. Not exactly chick music.

Not particularly my cup of tea either.

$15K cables to hook to RCA jack connector blocks that came out from some Chinese factory for 20 cents each.

The fact that these cables will be plugged into a 20 cent jack is what bothers you?

 

[YesChickenNuggets]

Not particularly my cup of tea either.


The fact that these cables will be plugged into a 20 cent jack is what bothers you?

You guys are mistaken, jacks ordered in bulk cost only fractions of 1 cent.

Normal electronics built out of china is roughly retail priced 3x to 10x what it costs to produce. Profit margins vary widely. With the audiophile gear it can be any multiple, because some of you ding dongs out there really are that dumb. ;D

 

[olbobcat]

I am confused. Which is better High End or The Upper End?

 

[MarkS]

"Is the entire audio industry a fraud?"

The so-called "high end" is almost entirely a fraud.

On the other hand, amazingly high-quality sound is available for relatively modest sums, once one sorts through all the misinformation.

 

[Steven Holt]

I have been in this hobby a long time. I don't yet understand the finer technical aspects of the hobby (as anyone who has read my posts probably understand), but I'm learning more ever day, thanks to ASR and our amazing membership. But I do know good sound, and I know what it takes to have good sound. To my point : you give me about $5000 and I will give you in return an excellent 2.1 stereo system. To use Youtube terms, it will sound full, rich, deep, and lush. The midrange will bring tears to your eyes. (and you can bet that I will spend plenty of time looking at THE ROOM that system will be in). Now, you give me $25000 and I will give you THE EXACT SAME SYSTEM as before and take that extra $20000 and donate it to pediatric cancer/aids research. If you give me $50000, I will hand that check back to you and tell you that I don't design Show Off systems and that you should find better uses for your money. Far too many people do not understand the Law of Diminishing Returns and there are far too many hucksters in this hobby ready to take their money.

 

[Marc v E]

I have been in this hobby a long time. I don't yet understand the finer technical aspects of the hobby (as anyone who has read my posts probably understand), but I'm learning more ever day, thanks to ASR and our amazing membership. But I do know good sound, and I know what it takes to have good sound. To my point : you give me about $5000 and I will give you in return an excellent 2.1 stereo system. To use Youtube terms, it will sound full, rich, deep, and lush. The midrange will bring tears to your eyes. (and you can bet that I will spend plenty of time looking at THE ROOM that system will be in). Now, you give me $25000 and I will give you THE EXACT SAME SYSTEM as before and take that extra $20000 and donate it to pediatric cancer/aids research. If you give me $50000, I will hand that check back to you and tell you that I don't design Show Off systems and that you should find better uses for your money. Far too many people do not understand the Law of Diminishing Returns and there are far too many hucksters in this hobby ready to take their money.

True, but...

have you listened to the Genelec 8351 or 8361?

Ime they are stunning.
Even compared to a 5000 dollar system.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I have been in this hobby a long time. I don't yet understand the finer technical aspects of the hobby (as anyone who has read my posts probably understand), but I'm learning more ever day, thanks to ASR and our amazing membership. But I do know good sound, and I know what it takes to have good sound. To my point : you give me about $5000 and I will give you in return an excellent 2.1 stereo system. To use Youtube terms, it will sound full, rich, deep, and lush. The midrange will bring tears to your eyes. (and you can bet that I will spend plenty of time looking at THE ROOM that system will be in). Now, you give me $25000 and I will give you THE EXACT SAME SYSTEM as before and take that extra $20000 and donate it to pediatric cancer/aids research. If you give me $50000, I will hand that check back to you and tell you that I don't design Show Off systems and that you should find better uses for your money. Far too many people do not understand the Law of Diminishing Returns and there are far too many hucksters in this hobby ready to take their money.

Well yes and no... for example the JBL M2s sound much better than any $1500 a pair speakers.

Law of diminishing returns is at play, but for those who are serious about high quality sound and can afford it, the diminished return is worth the cost. Obviously if you can't afford the big JBLs and required amps, then you can have a great system at a much lower price point, but there is a real difference.

 

[Mr. Widget]

True, but...

have you listened to the Genelec 8351 or 8361?

Ime they are stunning.
Even compared to a 5000 dollar system.

Basically what I just said... and there are countless other examples as well.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Ifi Go Blu made it at $199.

I knew my purchased used Sony turntable ($400) had issues because the mat was OEM rubber and did not cost $650. Just ordered one. Must be the carbon fiber that takes it over the top. With the $4,000 RCA interconnects it will really sound better.

 

[dshreter]

True, but...

have you listened to the Genelec 8351 or 8361?

Ime they are stunning.
Even compared to a 5000 dollar system.

8361 costs $10,000 a pair, no?

 

[TonyJZX]

an unnecessarily imflamatory topic

to me i feel like there's parallels with the auto industry

i dont tend to love what the super high end does in either... eg. i'm very blase about D'Agostino, Gryphon and that sort... in the same way I'm ambivalent about the Bugattis of the world. Who is asking for a $64k 64kg analog preamp? Who is asking for a W16 quad turbo 8.0 liter $3 mil. supercar?

I'm actually a lot more curious on how Toyota can make a Camry for about $30,000... or how the Chinese or Indians can make a semblence of a car at $15,000...

I'm not in love with a Camry and I dont think they drive good but I cant deny there's billions of dollars of engineering in a base $30,000 Camry.

And so back to audio... one of the brands I like is JBL...

Here you have Harman backed by Samsung who have some of the best people, best facilities of any company anyway at any price.

Are you expecting world beating products at $500? Or $1,000?

No. But I expect they've done everything they can to design and build the best they can at that pricepoint. I know that its hard for anyone else to squeeze out a better design and build for that money. Does it have flaws? sure it does

And so it comes down to... can anyone else build a better $30,000 Camry? Apparently it seems almost no one can.

Can someone build a better $300 speaker than JBL? Apparently it seems almost no one can.

 

[AdamG]

"Is the entire audio industry a fraud?"

The so-called "high end" is almost entirely a fraud.

On the other hand, amazingly high-quality sound is available for relatively modest sums, once one sorts through all the misinformation.

This…Well said Sir!

 

[Steven Holt]

True, but...

have you listened to the Genelec 8351 or 8361?

Ime they are stunning.
Even compared to a 5000 dollar system.

I have not had the pleasure of listening to those speakers, by all accounts they are truly excellent. To those who own them, no offence intended. What I was trying to say, is that anyone can have a very good system for 'not much' money, relatively speaking. People should not spend an extra $1000 in gear to get an extra $10 in sound. To circle back to the Genelecs, if you own them, God bless ya. Considering what you get, worth every penny.

 

[Steven Holt]

then you can have a great system at a much lower price point, but there is a real difference.

Are you sure you're not comparing filet mignon to prime rib? The 'real difference' lays in the ear of the listener. My point : spend your money on things that actually make a difference i.e. BUY THE BEST SPEAKER YOU CAN AFFORD!!

 

[Jim Shaw]

My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?

No. Just most of it. We are dealing with imagination and thus, fantasy.
Who knows what Led Zepellin sounds like before the producer/engineer gets hold of it? No one. Likewise, what does Adelle sound like without Autotune? No one really knows, past the microphone boom stand. We are much busier reinforcing fantasies here than recreating realities. Is creating fantasies (but not admitting it) fraudulent? Is selling deliberate and loveable distortion fraud?
Ask your spiritual leader. And pass that power regenerator and those Unobtanium alloy wires...

 

[Mr. Widget]

BUY THE BEST SPEAKER YOU CAN AFFORD!!

Absolutely! The delta between good and great speakers is wider than in sources or electronics.

I agree with you that there are many excellent and surprisingly affordable choices out there. And yes, avoid the marketing BS and avoid stepping in the snake oil.

 

[atmasphere]

avoid stepping in the snake oil.

Its hard to clean off and leaves a nasty stain.

 

[egellings]

I can only comment from the late 80s on. Pro audio marketing had to be more grounded in science because the customer was well informed. Consumer audio offered some great gear, but was sold mainly on a magazine review or a dealer. Fraud may be a bit harsh, but that was the information everyone had so we rolled with it and bought into tweaks like cables pretty easily. If I just bought $2k Conrad Johnson pre-amp I’m damn sure not going Lowes for zip cord. Give me the AQ Grand Canyon or whatever the hell they called it so I knew I wasn’t wasting my investment.

You wouldn't have wasted your investment using zip cord if the cord's gauge was adequate. Of course, it suffers in the bling department.