Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[mhardy6647]

*Besides, really if it source 1st meaning the medium - then tape decks and turntables have no business in the conversation. The only media would be CD or higher quality.

OK, now I am curious!
In the ASR universe, what media are "higher quality" than CD?

 

[Mnyb]

OK, now I am curious!
In the ASR universe, what media are "higher quality" than CD?

Most of the stuff I’ve ever encountered are not limited by CD , they actual recordings are worse than the media

 

[mhardy6647]

Most of the stuff I’ve ever encountered are not limited by CD , they actual recordings are worse than the media

Well, that is a different matter (and not that I disagree)!
It's just that I was (am) under the impression that redbook CD is held around these parts as perfectly adequate for, at least, playback.
I may have that wrong, though.

 

[SIY]

A standard test load is a network which loads the amp in a way that a loudspeaker does. test loads
Can you acquire everything in the audio band up to 15KHz (that is safely beyond my hearing these days)? Will it be the same as the actual amplifier?

Yes, Paul's software can accommodate any standard sampling rate.

I'm extremely familiar with the PowerCube, but the question is what specific speaker simulator test load do you use for listening tests? I want everything to be agreed to in advance.

 

[AudioKC]

I've been on these forums for quite a while, and while I don't believe everything that is being said here, I'm constantly catching myself believing in the fraud.

Case and point - I spent well over $2000CAD on a Pre-amp (with >$500 on tubes for a Freya+) and a Denafrips Ares II, think that I will have an amazing setup with these two items. I've been listening to them for over a year now and I consider them to be great.

Lo and behold, I decided to buy a SMSL DO200, for around $399 in the last 11.11 sale, and plugged it in. Immediately, I heard a lot worse sound, lack of bass and something's wrong with my speakers. Thinking to myself ah ha! I’ve made the right purchase decisions.

I then realized I had wired the left and rights wrong, so I fixed it and what a surprise, everything returned. More deeper bass (if you see my other thread about lack of bass with my R11's), room shaking response, a sense of excitement that was sorely lacking in the Denafrips and Freya combo, and just a sheer sense of "speed". Drums felt like they hit me with force, whereas in the previous setup they were dulled a bit. Although we are talking 99.9 vs 99.8 difference. The price difference is almost $2500 vs $399.

The more and more I realize, maybe this industry is just a load of fraud? Even using my wife as a test, she likes the SMSL far better (her hearing range is far better than mine actually, she can hear things I cannot, like small high pitched sounds in the music here and there).

TL/DR - basically, I spent $$$ on equipment that did nothing but burn money, all replaced by a $399 DAC that does it all. I'm also using mono LA90's which are amazing as well.

My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?

I recommend to spend another 300$ on Dirac Live with Bass Control to understand that all that mambo jumbo with tubes and "audiophile grade HI-FI system" is bunch of marketing for people with to much money... people want to spend their money and feel something good (dopamine hit), they do not care about real good sound IMO.

Bigest changes for me in sound (order that I heard the most change)

1. Cables for Speakers
2. Power cord to the AMP
3. Marbels for better acoustics of the room...


Common on... I'm kidding.

This is a list.

1. Linear speaker (Revel M105)
2. Sub that linear from 17Hz to 100Hz at loud volumes (above 80dB)
3. Dirac Live Room Correction
4. Dirac Live Bass Control
5. Sound Panels for walls and a rug
6. DAC
7. AMP

You see that DAC and AMP is low in the list for me? Probably because I select them by SINAD/Power rating (no magic).

 

[atmasphere]

What specifically is a "standard test load"? FWIW, I see no difference in distortion with the 555 using a resistor versus a speaker, but I'll play along.

From that link on the Audio Precision website:

Reactive testing, where the load includes inductive and capacitive components, is not as commonly performed. Real world speakers, however, often have significant inductance and capacitance. Neglecting to test an amplifier with reactive loads means we can only speculate about its performance in actual use. An amplifier that has good resistive power output ratings, but poor drive into low impedances or reactive loads, may produce distortion well before it reaches rated output.

I was a bit surprised at your comment above. Is it common knowledge only amonst designers that distortion with any amplifier varies with load? The specs you see when an amp is driving a non-inductive load are not representative of what that amp actually does, which is why a good number of testing sites (such as Stereophile) use a standard test load. I'm wondering if that is part of the disconnect here; I thought we were on the same page with that.

 

[OldHvyMec]

ROOSKIE said:
*Besides, really if it source 1st meaning the medium - then tape decks and turntables have no business in the conversation. The only media would be CD or higher quality.

I appreciate people who have a lot of technical expertise. On the other hand sometime people say things that make absolutely no sense. Higher quality is always in the eyes of the beholder. The question is have you experienced great music along with the medium or are you strictly a "CD or better" guy because you have actually set in on a Top notch reel to reel or a lowly turntable to make that analogy. I have listened to some wonderful systems that only used burned CDs. He was a serious musician and pretty good at mixing his own music. That same musician listened to my way of reproduction and I couldn't get him to leave one of my setups. All analog, all old, and
better than anything he had ever heard. It is never the medium that presents the music. It's always the way you set up too play the medium you select.

The room, the room, the room. OK one more time THE ROOM and the room treatment is 50% of GREAT sound. Not your typical DSP crap that is an after though after you forgot to do the right thing first. Measure the room and correct it mechanically first. Place you bass system, which should works on all your systems and chose the Main transducers for the Genre. Other than one pair weighing 525lbs that usually works out.

The medium in my setup has NEVER limited any part of the experience. I have never compared any medium to any other medium. They all have their place. I will
concede that some types are better than others. 4 and 8 track tapes come to mind.

If I don't like LPs, why would I go out of my way to make them sound good, much less if "CD or Better" are already superior in your own mind. Talk about bias. LOL
No harm, no foul. But, BUT, BUT! Just a different point of view from a fellow compatriot. I know one thing for sure. I have always liked Valves vs SS there are
exceptions to that. Pass designs are a great example of the almost perfect imperfection for my ears. Not all of his designs but usually with a fair amount of feedback.

I like stuff a little sloppy, what can I say. If I was looking for precision, music is not the place for me. Goofs are ok.. LOL I smile when I listen. No scowl on this face.
Yoko Ono maybe, my next door neighbor for sure.

Regards

 

[atmasphere]

Yes, Paul's software can accommodate any standard sampling rate.

I'm extremely familiar with the PowerCube, but the question is what specific speaker simulator test load do you use for listening tests? I want everything to be agreed to in advance.

I missed this. Are you saying that the software will be able to impose the distortion product that the 555 will make when running at power and on a specific test load with a musical cut? If yes, I'm impressed. My worry is that the software will do something that the amp doesn't or vice versa.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I appreciate people who have a lot of technical expertise. On the other hand sometime people say things that make absolutely no sense. Higher quality is always in the eyes of the beholder. The question is have you experienced great music along with the medium or are you strictly a "CD or better" guy because you have actually set in on a Top notch reel to reel or a lowly turntable to make that analogy. I have listened to some wonderful systems that only used burned CDs. He was a serious musician and pretty good at mixing his own music. That same musician listened to my way of reproduction and I couldn't get him to leave one of my setups. All analog, all old, and
better than anything he had ever heard. It is never the medium that presents the music. It's always the way you set up too play the medium you select.

The room, the room, the room. OK one more time THE ROOM and the room treatment is 50% of GREAT sound. Not your typical DSP crap that is an after though after you forgot to do the right thing first. Measure the room and correct it mechanically first. Place you bass system, which should works on all your systems and chose the Main transducers for the Genre. Other than one pair weighing 525lbs that usually works out.

The medium in my setup has NEVER limited any part of the experience. I have never compared any medium to any other medium. They all have their place. I will
concede that some types are better than others. 4 and 8 track tapes come to mind.

If I don't like LPs, why would I go out of my way to make them sound good, much less if "CD or Better" are already superior in your own mind. Talk about bias. LOL
No harm, no foul. But, BUT, BUT! Just a different point of view from a fellow compatriot. I know one thing for sure. I have always liked Valves vs SS there are
exceptions to that. Pass designs are a great example of the almost perfect imperfection for my ears. Not all of his designs but usually with a fair amount of feedback.

I like stuff a little sloppy, what can I say. If I was looking for precision, music is not the place for me. Goofs are ok.. LOL I smile when I listen. No scowl on this face.
Yoko Ono maybe, my next door neighbor for sure.

Regards

I wish I could give your post two "Likes".

I would suggest that the ROOM is probably even more than 50% of great sound, but we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

[ROOSKIE]

OK, now I am curious!
In the ASR universe, what media are "higher quality" than CD?

Digital files in various formats
However I am dubious they sound subjectively better, some claim they can hear such things.
Objectively they are indeed better/higher resolution

 

[SIY]

I missed this. Are you saying that the software will be able to impose the distortion product that the 555 will make when running at power and on a specific test load with a musical cut? If yes, I'm impressed. My worry is that the software will do something that the amp doesn't or vice versa.

It is extremely useful software; Paul does remarkable work. I can choose any harmonic profile I like. I can also add the same level of hum as in the actual power amp.

Again, I've done pretty extensive measurements on the 555 and have harmonic spectra at piles of different fundamental frequencies, levels, and different loads. So pick one, feel free to use a worst case. Your contention is that the harmonic structure at better than 0.02% THD+N in the top octaves and 0.01% THD+N is audible as "bright" and "harsh." Not only can I not hear this, in test after test of amplifiers, no one else has, either (e.g., the Richard Clark challenge and many others).

And you need to choose the source material as well. I don't want that as an excuse in the event that you are unable to distinguish the distorted and undistorted files ears-only.

 

[gfinlays]

I am not sure I would go to the UK for advice on anything culinary.

Why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?

 

[Axo1989]

Well, objectively vinyl is far inferior to CD standard.
It is inferior to any basic streaming subscriptions compression algorithms.
Subjectively = 'shrug', up to you I guess.

Not up to me really. Vinyl's before my time: I've listened to an actual LP maybe a dozen times in my life? We did a listening comparison in another thread, pretty interesting for someone previously unaware of the sonics in question actually.

Any sound quality 'improvement' due to the master is due to differences in the way it was mixed not due to vinyl being higher or equal fidelity.

Most differences are to accomodate the limitation of the medium and production, such as the high expense cutting high frequency information accurately and saving space by vastly lowering the fidelity of the bass.
RIAA ' standards' are involved and other things.
I also realize some vinyl masters are preferred but someine should just put that master on CD/Digital. It would sound the same or better. (Especailly sans the pops and clicks)

Agree (covered by my previous post in fact).

Anyway I am not poo-pooing vinyl as a hobby or trying to turn this into a digital vs vinyl thread.
but the high priced analog gear IMHO is a worst case offender. Some $20k speakers are still justified IMHO but I dont think even 1 single $20k turntable is.

With the caveat I mentioned that some of these pieces are gorgeous works of craft and art so yah as art/sculptures/master craft that part is maybe passable if you are type to buy $50k painting and $20k rugs and stuff. Support art the arts.

Yep I understood you weren't dissing all aspects of vinyl, or collectability/ritual etc.

But if we ignore the Veblen aspect of high-priced goods, the value (to an individual) of (over) designed/engineered audio gear boils down to aesthetics and haptics. There's nothing intrinsic to turntables etc that isn't applicable to other components. What you (or I) value is a different question, of course: "justified" or "maybe passable" are simply value judgements.

But I replied to your post because I think the specific assertion that there's a higher level of fraud going on is nonsensical. That's the idea I took issue with. Otherwise we appear to agree.

 

[Doodski]

I am not sure I would go to the UK for advice on anything culinary.

I had English Fish and Chips yesterday and it was smothered in lemon and pickle dip with mayo. I think that's a classic!

 

[Holmz]

I had English Fish and Chips yesterday and it was smothered in lemon and pickle dip with mayo. I think that's a classic!

They mostly used vinegar and lemon here.

Reminds me of the Belgian friits wiyth mayo, as the difference between that and freedom fries.
That is almost Humour how congress could pass the freedom fries before discussing the war.

 

[Doodski]

vinegar and lemon here

Doesn't that high of a % of acid eat/soften the enamel on teeth?

 

[Holmz]

Doesn't that high of a % of acid eat/soften the enamel on teeth?

Many gargle with beer quickly afterwards.
Hence the expression, “Full of piss-n-vinegar”

 

[Doodski]

Many gargle with beer quickly afterwards.
Hence the expression, “Full of piss-n-vinegar”

Well... I know my homebrew of fresh squeezed lemon with chopped dill pickles and mixed with mayo was unconventional but it sure was tasty. Yes, I've heard that expression before and have used it too... Lol.

 

[Holmz]

Well... I know my homebrew of fresh squeezed lemon with chopped dill pickles and mixed with mayo was unconventional but it sure was tasty. Yes, I've heard that expression before and have used it too... Lol.

^Remonds me^ of the ten martinis.

 

[Doodski]

^Remonds me^ of the ten martinis.

They make martinis with pickles in them? Lol. It actually might have some tangy taste but it would be veering far off from a traditional martini. I find those pickled onions and various types of olives work well in martinis.