Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

[Pavlya]

Hi guys, i was looking to extend the low frequency response of my speakers (small penaudio charisma standmounts).
I dont need high spl levels, normal listening volume is enough.
After googling for reviews i was pretty convinced, that rel t7i or t9i feets me well, but then found this thread and registered to ask some questions about subwoofers.
As i understand the high level connection is not good for the sub connection, but rel claims that it's "best you can get for music listening".
Using the sub without room correction is a waste of money ?
I dont have that much sub brands at my place, there is velodyne, svs, rel, mj acoustics and subs from hi-fi brands.
So svs sb1000pro or sb2000pro can be a good choice or there are some better options?
Thanks

 

[Chrispy]

Hi guys, i was looking to extend the low frequency response of my speakers (small penaudio charisma standmounts).
I dont need high spl levels, normal listening volume is enough.
After googling for reviews i was pretty convinced, that rel t7i or t9i feets me well, but then found this thread and registered to ask some questions about subwoofers.
As i understand the high level connection is not good for the sub connection, but rel claims that it's "best you can get for music listening".
Using the sub without room correction is a waste of money ?
I dont have that much sub brands at my place, there is velodyne, svs, rel, mj acoustics and subs from hi-fi brands.
So svs sb1000pro or sb2000pro can be a good choice or there are some better options?
Thanks

What gear do you have to use the sub with other than the speakers? Rel appeals to those with older 2ch gear due the high level connection thing, but many subs can do that. Pricing/value comes into it as well....Rel priced equivalently where you are?

 

[Pavlya]

I have perreaux audiant 80i integrated amp, with Pre Out, so i don't really need the sub with high level connection.
T7i costs about 1400-1450usd, sb2000pro about the same price.
T5i and Sb1000pr about $1k, but SVS slightly cheaper.
There is also MJ Acoustics Reference 100 MKII for about $1.85k, but I'm not sure if it worth the price.
Velodyne DB-10 and DB-12 are about in the same price range.
There are also some hi-fi brand subs, like m-audio, dali, paradigm, dynaudio etc, but im not sure if they are any good or purely for show.

 

[sweetchaos]

but im not sure if they are any good or purely for show.

*raises hand*
I know, I know.
See my 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet to see which subwoofers are worth buying.

Sneak peak...i'm working on adding 34 more models *soon*.

 

[Chrise36]

Hi guys, i was looking to extend the low frequency response of my speakers (small penaudio charisma standmounts).
I dont need high spl levels, normal listening volume is enough.
After googling for reviews i was pretty convinced, that rel t7i or t9i feets me well, but then found this thread and registered to ask some questions about subwoofers.
As i understand the high level connection is not good for the sub connection, but rel claims that it's "best you can get for music listening".
Using the sub without room correction is a waste of money ?
I dont have that much sub brands at my place, there is velodyne, svs, rel, mj acoustics and subs from hi-fi brands.
So svs sb1000pro or sb2000pro can be a good choice or there are some better options?
Thanks

The high level can have advantages if you have ground loop problems otherwise rca is better.The more drivers reproducing low frequencies from different positions the better if you tune them right.DSP alone is not always the solution.

 

[mansr]

Rel appeals to those with older 2ch gear due the high level connection thing, but many subs can do that.

That includes the SB-1000 Pro and probably other SVS models.

 

[Pavlya]

See my 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet to see which subwoofers are worth buying.

Thanks a lot, I've actually tried to check this spreadsheet, but I'm not sure, how to distinguish a good sub from a bad sub in your list. There are measurements of spl on every frequency, so the higher is better ? There is also room size recommendation.
Is that correct and should i choose according to spl and recommended room size ?

 

[sweetchaos]

Thanks a lot, I've actually tried to check this spreadsheet, but I'm not sure, how to distinguish a good sub from a bad sub in your list. There are measurements of spl on every frequency, so the higher is better ? There is also room size recommendation.
Is that correct and should i choose according to spl and recommended room size ?

Yes.
I follow the guidelines:
1. Pick a budget. Say US$500. Create a filter, to only show subs below that price.
2. Sort by highest output for a given frequency (say 25hz). Whichever frequency is important to you.
3. Measure your room size and figure out your room size rating. Then quickly compare to best performing subs. If your room is too large, and none of the filtered subs can match it, you either need to save up $ for a bigger budget, or simply accept that you won’t be playing the subwoofer at reference levels and therefore can accept a smaller room rated sub.
4. Look at which manufacturers perform the best (you'll see SVS, Rythmik, Monoprice, etc). Keep those manufacturers in mind.
5. Go back to regular sorting, where all subwoofers are included (those with CEA-2010-A data and those without) and see if there's a model that interests you that hasn't been reviewed yet, by the same manufacturer.
6. Narrow it down to 2-3 models, then dive deeper into their features.
7. Choose one that suits your needs.

The reason I do this is because sometimes we won't see a 3rd party review for a new subwoofer that just hit the market (like was the case for SVS PB-1000 PRO and SVS SB-1000 PRO about a month ago). We already expected great performance from them, but we didn't know how good they will be compared to the non-pro models. Ignoring those in your research would have been costly, considering how well they performed, once the measurements were released.

I try my best to include notes about upcoming subwoofer reviews, so that helps.
Overall, this spreadsheet takes the guesswork out of choosing subwoofers.
Plus I include other valuable information, like warranty, high pass filters, colours, size, etc.
Whatever the case, there's a well-measuring subwoofer waiting just for you!

 

[Chrispy]

I have perreaux audiant 80i integrated amp, with Pre Out, so i don't really need the sub with high level connection.
T7i costs about 1400-1450usd, sb2000pro about the same price.
T5i and Sb1000pr about $1k, but SVS slightly cheaper.
There is also MJ Acoustics Reference 100 MKII for about $1.85k, but I'm not sure if it worth the price.
Velodyne DB-10 and DB-12 are about in the same price range.
There are also some hi-fi brand subs, like m-audio, dali, paradigm, dynaudio etc, but im not sure if they are any good or purely for show.

Well, those Rels may cost about the same as the SVS but neither compares directly. Can't do a lot with an 8" driver in any case....size matters still to a good extent. I'd definitely rather have the larger drivers in the SVS subs myself and would likely choose their ported version first but if you don't particularly need the lower bass the sealed versions could work well and would yield a smaller box. Hoffman's Iron Law of speaker building says you can have a choice of any two of these at one time: 1/bass extension, 2/efficiency 3/enclosure size.

Never heard of MJ Acoustics myself, but looking at some of their stuff they seem more like Rel as to the market they aim at. While the current model seems to be the Reference 100 MkIV, at least you get a 10" driver but too much marketing rather than facts from what I saw rather than any real spec/measurement. A little better looking finish choices aesthetically than Rel IMO, tho.

Velodyne basically isn't what they were at one point since focusing on LIDAR systems and spinning off the audio business. They once had the Digital Drive Plus subs that were a nice series but don't think are available any longer. I rarely see them in the US now at all as a brand, and this DB-12 doesn't look very impressive for the relatively high price.

Some speaker brands put out a decent sub but I'd tend to stick with sub specialists generally. Where are you?

 

[richard12511]

Yes.
I follow the guidelines:
1. Sort by your budget (say US$ 1000)
2. Sort by highest output for a given frequency (say 25hz). Whichever frequency is important to you.
3. Consider your room size and whether your budget is enough, or you should save on coffee runs for a while.
4. Look at which manufacturers perform the best (you'll see SVS, Rythmik, Monoprice, etc). Keep those manufacturers in mind.
5. Go back to regular sorting, where all subwoofers are included (those with CEA-2010-A data and those without) and see if there's a model that interests you that hasn't been reviewed yet, by the same manufacturer.

The reason I do this is because sometimes we won't see a 3rd party review for a new subwoofer that just hit the market (like was the case for SVS PB-1000 PRO and SVS SB-1000 PRO about a month ago). We already expected great performance from them, but we didn't know how good they will be compared to the non-pro models. Ignoring those in your research would have been costly, considering how well they performed, once the measurements were released.

I try my best to include notes about upcoming subwoofer reviews, so that helps.

Overall, this spreadsheet takes the guesswork out of choosing subwoofers.

Plus I include other valuable information, like warranty, high pass filters, colours, size, etc.
Whatever the case, there's a well-measuring subwoofer waiting just for you!

Great algorithm for finding the best subwoofer in one's budget .

 

[richard12511]

There are measurements of spl on every frequency, so the higher is better ? ?

Pretty much. Those numbers are how loud that particular sub was able to play that particular frequency while keeping distortion under the threshold set by the CEA-2010A spec. So not necessarily the loudest the sub can fart out, but more the loudest it can play "clean" and while sounding excellent. If you see a column with no number in it, that means the sub couldn't really play that frequency at all with low enough distortion. There is also the CEA-2010B spec, which changes that distortion % threshold level depending on the frequency(rather than it being constant).

It's by far the best way to compare subwoofer performance and estimate how great they will sound in your room. Choosing subwoofers based on CEA-2010 is even more effective (imo) than choosing speakers based on CEA-2034 performance, as it better encapsulates the absolute performance.

 

[Mountain Goat]

Or not....that Rel logo they splash everywhere plus the footings are kinda fugly Lots of good finishes on subs available from many vendors of capable subs....

Yes. Salk puts Rythmiks into fancy cabinets. With thicker walls.
https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Rythmik+F25+Subwoofer

https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Rythmik+G25+Subwoofer

 

[Chrispy]

Yes. Salk puts Rythmiks into fancy cabinets. With thicker walls.
https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Rythmik+F25+Subwoofer
View attachment 131999
https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Rythmik+G25+Subwoofer
View attachment 132000

Then again you have to want to believe in their servo thing as being valuable. But Salk cabinets are awesome.

 

[Mountain Goat]

The least-expensive Rythmik that ASR has tested did well. And those of us that have them swear by them.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rythmik-l12-subwoofer-review.12140/
This is a servo subwoofer which means it has a feedback loop to reduce distortion of the sub. Until we test more subs, and standardize on a playback level, we can't make comparisons. But just looking at the distortion metrics by themselves, it seems reasonably low:

 

[Chrispy]

The least-expensive Rythmik that ASR has tested did well. And those of us that have them swear by them.

Never had one of Rythmik's, but did have another make's. These days I just build my own and don't worry about the slight difference that might make.

 

[Mountain Goat]

That's cool. But not everybody has the time, ability, space, or inclination to build their own speakers.

And Rythmik does have DIY plans: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/diy.html

Here's the 15" driver/plate amp they sell as a set. 600 or 1,000w: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/DS1500ci.html

 

[Chrispy]

That's cool. But not everybody has the time, ability, space, or inclination to build their own speakers.

And Rythmik does have DIY plans: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/diy.html

Here's the 15" driver/plate amp they sell as a set. 600 or 1,000w: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/DS1500ci.html

Doesn't matter if I built my own when it comes to the servo stuff, it just hasn't proved to be particularly effective. It's a nice marketing thing, tho. I find the Rythmik diy kits overpriced myself. Good luck.

 

[Mountain Goat]

Curious what science you've seen on servo subs. I honestly haven't been able to find anything other than audiophile threads.

Edit: I found some numbers, but they still don't show the effectiveness of the servo circuit.

 

[Chrispy]

Where has it "not been proven"? Curious what science you've seen on servo subs.

Measurements generally. Little advantage shown by "servo"

ps but is marketed that way

pps you got some evidence it does make a big difference outside of claims?

 

[Dialectic]

Yes. Salk puts Rythmiks into fancy cabinets. With thicker walls.
https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Rythmik+F25+Subwoofer
View attachment 131999
https://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=Rythmik+G25+Subwoofer
View attachment 132000

I am tempted by the F25 but may run out of juice from the wall...