Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

[Palmspar]

I just mean the cutoff or corner frequency of the shape of the highpass filter behavior of the low frequency roll off of the woofer/box/EQ. Some of REL's subs like the HT1510 has a 4th order roll off of about 4th order at 27 Hz. (again, a bit higher than many HT subs).

My SVS SB2000 has 23hz+-3db in REW, SVS claims 19hz+-3db.
It is 19hz if you dont calculate from the top of the bump @45hz.
I dont think its bad to have that deep +-3db point, on lower volumes your ears hear less base.
My DIY sub is tuned @22hz+-3db.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

My SVS SB2000 has 23hz+-3db in REW, SVS claims 19hz+-3db.
It is 19hz if you dont calculate from the top of the bump @45hz.
I dont think its bad to have that deep +-3db point, on lower volumes your ears hear less base.
My DIY sub is tuned @22hz+-3db.

Well, yes, your ears are less sensitive down there but you'll get 10-15 dB of boost from the room around 20 Hz and without EQing that down, it will likely sound a little muddy and not tight. It "fun" for theater but that is the issue "musical" subs are addressing.

 

[Palmspar]

I agree, for base is always eq needed.
For music sytems without eq is the way rel make subs better.
But for receivers or systems with eq i think deeper tuning is better.
When subwoofer plays flat and deep on its one, the eq can also make it play flat in the room.
And there is not much music wiith 20 hz tones in it also.

 

[Chrise36]

Give an example of 2 subs that sounds different when playing 40hz

What sub plays only 40hz?
Group delay is the measurement of how much time it takes for individual frequency bands of an input signal to be produced by the speaker. It can indicate that some frequency components are developing slower than others or are taking longer to decay. It is generally thought that 1.5 sound cycles are needed for group delay to be audible at bass frequencies,

 

[keenly]

What sub plays only 40hz?
Group delay is the measurement of how much time it takes for individual frequency bands of an input signal to be produced by the speaker. It can indicate that some frequency components are developing slower than others or are taking longer to decay. It is generally thought that 1.5 sound cycles are needed for group delay to be audible at bass frequencies,

I used 40hz as an example because some would argue most subs sound the same from 40-120hz.

 

[Chrise36]

Now compare the previous SVS to the Perlisten:

 

[Chilli]

There's a lot of rel negativity in this thread, and I can understand that it appears to be from the models they have heard or seen measured, especially comparing subs of a similar price to them (In their respective country).
The 1510 data looks good, so I think we can throw out the idea that all rel subs are bad. It's a blanket stereotype from what we have experienced in the lower models.
They're expensive, but I don't think the 1510 performs worse than the monoprice model. Measurements and variation are common, and we can see that in the number of measurements taken from several examples of the same model.
Where I am situated (NZ), monoprice is not really available. Svs is slightly cheaper than Rel here. But when you want a 40 to 50kg chunk of real estate in your living room, you don't want it to become an eyesore.

 

[rynberg]

REL has never sold a high value sub for their entire existence as a company (in the US).

Just in comparison to the piano black sealed Rythmik models (the normal matte ash finish version of these models is significantly cheaper) and the 1510:

• F12SE: much more linear response to below 20 Hz, less distortion, roughly same output, smaller footprint, only ~$1,300
• E15HP-SE: much more linear response to below 20 Hz, less distortion, several dB more output, similar footprint, only ~$1,600
• F18SE: much more linear response to below 20 Hz, less distortion, ~10 dB more output, similar footprint +2" in depth, similar price at ~$2,100

Nothing wrong with a personal priority of aesthetic choice over value, but it doesn't change the fact that REL is a poor value purchase from a performance-per-dollar aspect (in the US). And some of their products are simply poor performers period.

EDIT: I realize the value proposition might be substantially different in NZ...possibly the REL products are good value in that specific market. The 1510 looks to be a decent performing product for the size; it's just not that great a value in the US.

 

[Chilli]

REL has never sold a high value sub for their entire existence as a company (in the US).

Just in comparison to the piano black sealed Rythmik models (the normal matte ash finish version of these models is significantly cheaper) and the 1510:

• F12SE: much more linear response to below 20 Hz, less distortion, roughly same output, smaller footprint, only ~$1,300
• E15HP-SE: much more linear response to below 20 Hz, less distortion, several dB more output, similar footprint, only ~$1,600
• F18SE: much more linear response to below 20 Hz, less distortion, ~10 dB more output, similar footprint +2" in depth, similar price at ~$2,100

Nothing wrong with a personal priority of aesthetic choice over value, but it doesn't change the fact that REL is a poor value purchase from a performance-per-dollar aspect (in the US). And some of their products are simply poor performers period.

EDIT: I realize the value proposition might be substantially different in NZ...possibly the REL products are good value in that specific market. The 1510 looks to be a decent performing product for the size; it's just not that great a value in the US.

Yes. It's not a good value proposition here either. Might be close to double the price to get good performance.

 

[Chrise36]

Rel HT/1510

 

[goat76]

I use two old and fairly cheap REL T2 subwoofers in stereo configuration positioned close to each main speaker, I think they work great as bass extensions for my main speakers. I have made measurements in REW and let the subwoofers overlap the mains to fill up in the midbass area where a little bit more energy is needed.

I have thought about upgrading the REL T2s for something like the REL S/510, but I’m not totally convinced it will bring an improvement at the apartment-friendly levels I listen to.

When it comes to the “musical” part, yes, REL subwoofers are highly musical!

 

[Snoopy]

Just got a bit annoyed by the cable mess caused by that high level subwoofer cable of the Rel. removed it and decided to use only the subwoofer out of my Stereo amplifier. I use the Low Level input on the subwoofer.

I quess that is correct because Im getting bass from the subwoofer. Right? The LFE input is for AV receivers for the .1 tracks of a Blu-ray for example?

 

[DMill]

Just got a bit annoyed by the cable mess caused by that high level subwoofer cable of the Rel. removed it and decided to use only the subwoofer out of my Stereo amplifier. I use the Low Level input on the subwoofer.

I quess that is correct because Im getting bass from the subwoofer. Right? The LFE input is for AV receivers for the .1 tracks of a Blu-ray for example?

It would be interesting to test measurements of the high level vs. low level hookups In a room. My guess is there would be little to no difference but I could be wrong.

 

[Snoopy]

It would be interesting to test measurements of the high level vs. low level hookups In a room. My guess is there would be little to no difference but I could be wrong.

I run my 2.1 setup (2 x wharfdale Evo 4.2 and Rel Tzero MK3) simply with a stereo amplifier (Cambridge CXA81 and CXN v2).

The CXA81 has a low pass filter on the sub out of 2,3khz. On the pre-outs is no filter.

So if I run it from the pre-outs it should be basically the same as the high level inputs?

Not that i could imagine there is a difference. At least it sounds no different to me .

 

[Snoopy]

It would be interesting to test measurements of the high level vs. low level hookups In a room. My guess is there would be little to no difference but I could be wrong.

I just purchased the housecurve app.

Uploaded the FIR filters to Roon. And upsample everything there to 192khz. (Cxn v2 would upsample everything below anyway).

Just use the auto tuning to Harman curve.