Integrated Amplifier for B&W DM 602 S3

[caccarot81]

Hi Guys
What about Marantz?I mean the PM 8000 series (8300/8500)
At the Moment the top Is PM8600 but Is too expensive for me.
On the contrary,Is not impossible to find 8300/8500 in the Second Hand market in the range 600/800 euros
They are capable of 100 W per Channel
What about the sound signature of Marantz?
Any sinergy with B&W 600 series?

 

[VintageFlanker]

Hi Guys
What about Marantz?I mean the PM 8000 series (8300/8500)
At the Moment the top Is PM8600 but Is too expensive for me.

I've never heard about any PM8600/300/500 and I do not think it was even a thing. I do know the PM8006, tho, and owned a PM8005. Did not blow me away, if you ask me.

They are capable of 100 W per Channel

Under 8Ω? Not a chance.

What about the sound signature of Marantz?

Any sinergy with B&W 600 series?

Nothing to discuss anything about, IMHO. It is enough powerful and clean to properly drive x speaker to y SPL or it's not.

 

[caccarot81]

The choice of an amplifier is not so trivial, quite the contrary. As I see it, in the end it is a question of matching the electronics/speaker.. If we talk about timbre, do you think Marantz and Denon are the opposite or are they very similar?
Denon PMA 1500 AE (140 W at 4 Ohm) Is more powerful than Marantz PM 8006.

 

[NewShoes]

The choice of an amplifier is not so trivial, quite the contrary. As I see it, in the end it is a question of matching the electronics/speaker.. If we talk about timbre, do you think Marantz and Denon are the opposite or are they very similar?
Denon PMA 1500 AE (140 W at 4 Ohm) Is more powerful than Marantz PM 8006.

In terms of timbre they both should measure perfectly flat across the audible frequency range

 

[VintageFlanker]

As I see it, in the end it is a question of matching the electronics/speaker..

It is from a technical standpoint (performance requirements). Certainly not "timbre".

 

[ZolaIII]

Those speakers deap under 3 Ohm's but luckily in the area that it's mostly empty (12.5 KHz), they stay at over 4 Ohm's (4.73 @ 170 Hz) where signal is hotest and where they drove most current so choosing amplifier for them isn't that hard. They have peak at around 9 KHz that you need to really shave of and vertical directivity is far from great (you really need to put twitter to ear level).
Read the review:

B&W DM 602 Series 3 Surround Speaker System Measurements

Measurements The B&W DM 602 S3's bass alignment is tuned to approximately 38Hz (the minimum impedance magnitude in the "saddle" between the two main impedance peaks typical of a ported enclosure), with a minimum impedance of 2.91ohms at 12.5kHz. This high-frequency minimum will not unduly stress...

www.soundandvision.com

Regarding amplifier what did you mean by integrated? Integrated with other functions, DAC and cetera or just solid state amplifier?
What you intend to use as a source and how? DAC, phono, WiFi and network, optical.
See a more deacent part of Yamaha AB class lineup that do 100W on 8 Ohm's (and more, didn't really wanted to answer as I feal as parrot repeating over and over again Yamaha part) if they are available where you live and you find something you like there of course. Most importantly integrate a DSP - EQ (including room correction) into the chain and buy a deacent enough microphone (and of course learn how to use it).

 

[killdozzer]

The choice of an amplifier is not so trivial, quite the contrary. As I see it, in the end it is a question of matching the electronics/speaker.. If we talk about timbre, do you think Marantz and Denon are the opposite or are they very similar?
Denon PMA 1500 AE (140 W at 4 Ohm) Is more powerful than Marantz PM 8006.

Timbre is not a popular topic here and, I believe, for a good reason. Put it politely, it shouldn't be possible to find any timbre in Denon or Marantz. An amp that performs well, shouldn't colour sound (have timbre, as you put it).

But I'll try to give you an answer you can use, from a different standpoint. More often than not, B&W speakers measure "bright" (have more energy in the upper freq. range) and accurate amps accentuate this or rather they don't attenuate it. If you're not a fan of "bright" speakers, I'd avoid B&W.

A good friend of mine went through this hustle. He had the B&W speakers that he absolutely loved while being hooked up to a very old NAD which back then had a sound signature for one reason or another. He didn't like the fact that his old NAD didn't have a remote (and one channel developed some noise) and he decided to buy a new amp. New amp was accurate so the brightness came through. He is attached to his speakers so he decided to go the wrong way around and got rid of the new amp. He bought another very old NAD. He's happy again.

I don't think this is the way to go, but he is a set&forget kinda of a guy so he did his EQ with equipment. He loves it and has no intention of changing it so I guess it worked for him.

Bottom line; speakers sounded, not the amp.

 

[caccarot81]

Those speakers deap under 3 Ohm's but luckily in the area that it's mostly empty (12.5 KHz), they stay at over 4 Ohm's (4.73 @ 170 Hz) where signal is hotest and where they drove most current so choosing amplifier for them isn't that hard. They have peak at around 9 KHz that you need to really shave of and vertical directivity is far from great (you really need to put twitter to ear level).
Read the review:

B&W DM 602 Series 3 Surround Speaker System Measurements

Measurements The B&W DM 602 S3's bass alignment is tuned to approximately 38Hz (the minimum impedance magnitude in the "saddle" between the two main impedance peaks typical of a ported enclosure), with a minimum impedance of 2.91ohms at 12.5kHz. This high-frequency minimum will not unduly stress...

www.soundandvision.com

Regarding amplifier what did you mean by integrated? Integrated with other functions, DAC and cetera or just solid state amplifier?
What you intend to use as a source and how? DAC, phono, WiFi and network, optical.
See a more deacent part of Yamaha AB class lineup that do 100W on 8 Ohm's (and more, didn't really wanted to answer as I feal as parrot repeating over and over again Yamaha part) if they are available where you live and you find something you like there of course. Most importantly integrate a DSP - EQ (including room correction) into the chain and buy a deacent enough microphone (and of course learn how to use it).

Hi, Thanks for your interest
Regarding Amplifier, I mean integrated SS without DAC
My audio chain would be this:
Intel Nuc (or Macbok Pro)>USB>DAC>RCA>Amplifier>RCA>Speakers
Flac/WAV (Vinyl Ripping)

 

[ZolaIII]

See full Yamaha range SA and R-N range (bare naked or with loads of other stuff). See what's available where you are and can you get either B stock or not old and not used much second hand. You didn't say for how much money anyway you have measurements for those speakers so you can do a lot to get them in line (with a deacent player with comprehensive DSP chain and mic of course) how ever you prefer. What amplifier do you have (it's not that you really need a 100W amplifier all the time just when you really want to crunk them up [and again you will only wish for it most of the time])?

 

[caccarot81]

See full Yamaha range SA and R-N range (bare naked or with loads of other stuff). See what's available where you are and can you get either B stock or not old and not used much second hand. You didn't say for how much money anyway you have measurements for those speakers so you can do a lot to get them in line (with a deacent player with comprehensive DSP chain and mic of course) how ever you prefer. What amplifier do you have (it's not that you really need a 100W amplifier all the time just when you really want to crunk them up [and again you will only wish for it most of the time])?

I've a small Marantz Integrated Amplifier capable of 30 W per channel
MARANTZ PM4200
The room dedicated is about 15/20
I prefer Integrated amplifier without DAC
DAC will be the last component of the audio chain

 

[ZolaIII]

Well I prefer properly implemented and integrated DAC which is good enough when it comes to power amplifiers. AB class Yamahas aren't great regarding analog inputs (100 dB rated input SNR not that it will be much better whit other's especially regarding actual mesured one) you can hear a little hum from bass driver(with relatively sensitive speakers) when you put your ear on it. You still didn't say a price. See if something from new class G-H (with SoM's) fit you/your pocket. Uper Denon - Marantz from mentioned line's (PM) that have more power (and supposedly good advertised [as I don't really know how good it is] phono stage) rated at 60 - 80W (@ 8 Ohm's) actually aren't bad, they would have been very good if second harmonic whose better.

 

[caccarot81]

Well I prefer properly implemented and integrated DAC which is good enough when it comes to power amplifiers. AB class Yamahas aren't great regarding analog inputs (100 dB rated input SNR not that it will be much better whit other's especially regarding actual mesured one) you can hear a little hum from bass driver(with relatively sensitive speakers) when you put your ear on it. You still didn't say a price. See if something from new class G-H (with SoM's) fit you/your pocket. Uper Denon - Marantz from mentioned line's (PM) that have more power (and supposedly good advertised [as I don't really know how good it is] phono stage) rated at 60 - 80W (@ 8 Ohm's) actually aren't bad, they would have been very good if second harmonic whose better.

Thank you so much!
I had this feeling the speakers had Too much Energy in the High Frequencies.
A sort of metallic sound.
Having said that,I used a DAC of a entry Level CDP (a Technics Model) and A small Marantz Amplfier.
Anyway,I've many options amongst AB Integrated Amplfier 100 W.
Do you think 100 W are enough to get The maximum from Low Frequencies from My Speakers?
Apart the Spike on 9000 hz,The bass region freq of 602 S3 seem to be a problem.
It's underemphasized.
Basso are lacking.
Maybe a 140 W Amplfier could help to get more punch?

 

[ZolaIII]

I hope you know what is equal loudness normalization and how to authend bass to it. Those are actually quite decent regarding bass judging by the graph (measurement are done on relatively loud lv - about 86 dB program) down to 50 Hz and again you could try to extend it a little bit more (to 40~30 Hz) with DSP (for example I use Surround Field - subtle enhancement effect in JRiver for that). For more you will need a really good sub woofer or pair of them. As much as I can see those speakers are efficient 87dB/W/M and I doubt they really need much power (I don't own or had them). You must understand difference between 100 and 140W is only 2.4 dB. Between 30 and 100 is 20 dB. Telling you so you could imagine how much would it bring in regarding loudness.
@caccarot81
Edit: the 100 W is actually 10 dB increase to 30 W get a bit confused so sorry about that.

 

[caccarot81]

I hope you know what is equal loudness normalization and how to authend bass to it. Those are actually quite decent regarding bass judging by the graph (measurement are done on relatively loud lv - about 86 dB program) down to 50 Hz and again you could try to extend it a little bit more (to 40~30 Hz) with DSP (for example I use Surround Field - subtle enhancement effect in JRiver for that). For more you will need a really good sub woofer or pair of them. As much as I can see those speakers are efficient 87dB/W/M and I doubt they really need much power (I don't own or had them). You must understand difference between 100 and 140W is only 2.4 dB. Between 30 and 100 is 20 dB. Telling you so you could imagine how much would it bring in regarding loudness.

As you will have understood English is not my First language.
Also I'm a Newbie in the World Of Hi-fi.
Im I am immensely grateful for your precious advices.
In order to really Understand what These speakers can Put out,I Need to purchase a 100 W Amplifier.
AB class Integrated.
Here in My Country (Italy) there's a brand that Is very popular:Audio Analogue.
With My budget (500/600/700/800) I Guess I have to look at Japanese brands like Yamaha/Marantz/Denon
They have Tone controls that Audio Analogue Is missing.
However,with 600/700 euro I can buy AA Puccini 70

 

[zermak]

Do you really want a class AB amplifier? With your money (~500 euros) you could get a Hypex Ncore NC252MP from Audiophonics (150W into 8 ohm 1% THD); and with less than 800 euros you could get a 300W into 8ohm speaker amp (Hypex Ncore NC502MP).

On class AB I guess the Yamaha ToP-ART amp series should be fine reading a few comments on here but I would jump on the Ncore/class D ship if I were you considering its pefomance (and if you want a fancier looking amp you can look at other brands that works in the EU and spend a little more because of the look).

 

[ZolaIII]

For your budget you can get a lot actually. You have a index hire of mesured equipment from there filter out price/performance/power all it takes is some of your time to read it (reviews and part of the comments).

Audio Electronics Review and Measurements Index

Master table and index of all audio equipment reviews and measurements.

www.audiosciencereview.com

And prefer the brands who already earned their reputation (regarding quality, longevity, service and support).

Try to borrow amplifier with more power and see how it goes for you before rushing out to buy one. Leave some spare money from budget for a deacent measurements certified calibrated microphone if you already don't have one (80~100€).

 

[caccarot81]

@ZolaIII

Sorry If I Bother You But I've a question for You
As you rightly said My Speakers have a peak around 9000 hz.
The graphs show that and there's no reason to Doubt.
Having Said That,because of Minimum impedence of 3 Ohm,I need an Amplifier that can handle the lowest impedance loads.
I don't know If in 20 mq There's no need to buy a 100/140 W per channel BUT, Let's Say I decide that I Will go for IT.
I purchase let's Say a DENON 1500 AE who has 70 W at 8 0hm and 140 W at 4
Now,With a speaker that have a peak on 9000 hz,With a powerful amplifier, the problem on high frequencies will be even more obvious or not?

 

[ZolaIII]

With any speakers as harder you push them both low and high frequencies at the end of their bands will go up.
Those speakers are not hard to drive and don't need an amplifier tolerable to lo loads (any amp with recommend 8 Ohm's speakers will work with them just fine) as they stay well above 4 Ohm's where they need the power (because signal is hotest there). You simply shake off the peak at 9 KHz with EQ (PEQ preferably). Reason to have more powerful amplifier than your speakers really need lie elsewhere like using R128 loudness normalization or DSD playback (either that or stronger preamp which could compensate).
How loud do they sound with your 30 W rated amplifier? Can you mesure it (with your phone for example from listening position) in dB of course or at least describe it.

 

[caccarot81]

@ZolaIII
What are you saying sounds interesting.
Listen,Maybe you can tell me How make a test on my Speakers?
Next week I will be at my parents' house and I have the possibility to connect the stereo.
I've a CDP and A 30 W amplifier.
What I have to to exactly?

 

[caccarot81]

How is possible to do a test?How calculate and measure in Db