If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

[watchnerd]

This is when I realized McIntosh had become a brand marketing exercise: https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/merchandise/LB100

I have to give them honesty credit for charging $1500 and not claiming it does anything at all, sonically.

Some vendors would have claimed it changed the sound via tachyons or somesuch.

 

[MattHooper]

I'm a bit too young to understand the whole McIntosh phenomenon. Can some old geezer here tell me: Why is it such a high profile brand, with such fervent followers? What is the history that inspired such brand recognition?

 

[BDWoody]

I have to give them honesty credit for charging $1500 and not claiming it does anything at all, sonically.

Some vendors would have claimed it changed the sound via tachyons or somesuch.

I wonder if it was made to be an attention grabber for a retail sales display? A couple of customers think it's cool and want to buy one. The folks at Mcintosh start laughing and figure...what the hell...how about $1500...

That's pretty ballsy...gotta say...

 

[Julf]

I'm a bit too young to understand the whole McIntosh phenomenon. Can some old geezer here tell me: Why is it such a high profile brand, with such fervent followers? What is the history that inspired such brand recognition?

Grateful Dead. Lots of weed.

 

[BDWoody]

I'm a bit too young to understand the whole McIntosh phenomenon. Can some old geezer here tell me: Why is it such a high profile brand, with such fervent followers? What is the history that inspired such brand recognition?

Beautiful in form and function. Built when construction quality mattered. Lots of 40+ year old models still operating perfectly.
They hold their value well as used components. I could sell my old krell and Bryston (another highly regarded older brand) amps for at least what I bought them for years ago.

 

[SIY]

I'm a bit too young to understand the whole McIntosh phenomenon. Can some old geezer here tell me: Why is it such a high profile brand, with such fervent followers? What is the history that inspired such brand recognition?

Mac always sold good performing, reliable, luxurious-looking, and non-tweaky gear to the carriage trade, rather than audiophiles. For years, they cold-shouldered the so-called underground press because that wasn't their demographic. People bought the stuff to keep for 20 years or more. This changed after some corporate takeovers and a shift in the market.

 

[scott wurcer]

to the carriage trade, rather than audiophiles.

A friend had a wall of them that he rarely if ever used, he frequently lent his massive dining room to George for his wine tastings.

 

[SIY]

...lent his massive dining room to George for his wine tastings.

I'm still waiting for the subpoena. Or have I outlived him?

 

[watchnerd]

I can say that I auditioned a Prima Luna tube amp and couldn't hear any discernible difference between it and a comparable NAD SS. That just told me that the Prima Luna was simply designed to sound good and I didn't need to buy it because the NAD already sounded good.

I'm curious as to the speakers used?

Because, depending on the load and sensitivity, I might expect to hear some subtle differences, at least based on Stereophile's measurements:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-hp-integrated-amplifier-measurements

 

[MattHooper]

Thanks for the replies to my question about McIntosh.

I can't speak to the quality of their amplifiers, but having heard in a few different stores those tall McIntosh speakers with the multiple small midrange drivers, there were one of the most reliably awful speakers I've ever heard.

 

[watchnerd]

Thanks for the replies to my question about McIntosh.

I can't speak to the quality of their amplifiers, but having heard in a few different stores those tall McIntosh speakers with the multiple small midrange drivers, there were one of the most reliably awful speakers I've ever heard.

I don't know why anyone would buy their speakers.

Or their turntables, for that matter.

Stick to what they're known for.

 

[Julf]

Stick to what they're known for.

Brand marketing?

 

[Blake Klondike]

I'm curious as to the speakers used?

Because, depending on the load and sensitivity, I might expect to hear some subtle differences, at least based on Stereophile's measurements:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-hp-integrated-amplifier-measurements

The speakers were Harbeth P3 ESR and Monitor Audio Silver RS6,

 

[Blake Klondike]

I'm curious as to the speakers used?

Because, depending on the load and sensitivity, I might expect to hear some subtle differences, at least based on Stereophile's measurements:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-hp-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Sorry for the confusion-- I just realized the amp was a Rogue Sphinx, not a Prima Luna!

 

[LuckyLuke575]

I've also been intrigued by the tube phenomenon. I recently watched a Techmoan video on YouTube where he demo'd a 'tube processor' which basically just runs the sound through the tubes without amplification, thus applying the sound signature of tubes. It looks very interesting, because it would be nice to have a warmer sound, but I don't know what else is being introduced to the signal in terms of noise, distortion etc.

YAQIN SD CD3 6 N8P/6SN7 Stereo Tube Audio Upgrade Slang Buffer Processor

 

[Julf]

I've also been intrigued by the tube phenomenon. I recently watched a Techmoan video on YouTube where he demo'd a 'tube processor' which basically just runs the sound through the tubes without amplification, thus applying the sound signature of tubes. It looks very interesting, because it would be nice to have a warmer sound, but I don't know what else is being introduced to the signal in terms of noise, distortion etc.

YAQIN SD CD3 6 N8P/6SN7 Stereo Tube Audio Upgrade Slang Buffer Processor

Tube emulation plugin

 

[MattHooper]

One issue I'm still stuck on is correlating the explanations for "tube sound" with my subjective impressions.

Whenever I've compared SS amps driving my speakers (or brought my amps to a friend's place who wanted to check out tube amps). I hear a certain seemingly reliable change in character, pretty much whatever the speaker.

But when I look to explanations for "the tube amp sound" much of what is suggested implies that to the degree a tube amp will change the sound of a speaker, it's mostly acting as a tone control based on the interaction with the speaker impedance. This suggests that the "tube sound" should be much more speaker-dependent than I actually find, where in some cases the tube amp should sound pretty much as transparent as the SS amp, where more challenging impedance will bring out the "tube sound" in terms of frequency response contouring. But I hear a very consistent sonic effect across a variety of speakers, from super challenging sensitivity/impedance to far easier-to-drive speakers - the general rounding out of tone as it were. And the smaller Eico tube amp seems to have a really consistent sonic character too.

Then there is talk of distortion characteristics for tube amps that might explain the "tube sound." Well, if that is something that is consistent, it could explain my sonic impressions being consistent across different speakers. But as I understand it, the distortion we are talking abou tends to be that of clipping characteristics of a tube vs SS amp. But if that is the source of the distortion profile, then it should only occur when taxing the tube amp by playing at louder volumes. But I don't play at loud volumes, and the character I seem to hear when comparing an SS amp vs one of my tube amps seems consistent whatever the volume. There always seems to be a slight "rounding/softening/setting back" of hard transients, a filling-out and sort of rounding out of the sound in that classic tube-amp way, and bass also taking on a different character. Whether I play loud or soft.

Of course, the other variable here is simply listening bias, where the consistant sonic character is born of my own expectations. So I can't really provide evidence that the phenemonon I experience *needs* an explanation. I guess the thing is that even "objectivists" with good technical knowledge will say that some tube amps will distort the signal audibly, but I'm still trying to grok if the explanations make full sense of what I seem to hear.

 

[Julf]

Of course, the other variable here is simply listening bias, where the consistant sonic character is born of my own expectations. So I can't really provide evidence that the phenemonon I experience *needs* an explanation. I guess the thing is that even "objectivists" with good technical knowledge will say that some tube amps will distort the signal audibly, but I'm still trying to grok if the explanations make full sense of what I seem to hear.

There is also noise and uneven frequency response (usually a high frequency drop off as a result of the output transformer).

 

[SIY]

Of course, the other variable here is simply listening bias, where the consistant sonic character is born of my own expectations. So I can't really provide evidence that the phenemonon I experience *needs* an explanation.

^This^.

 

[watchnerd]

I've also been intrigued by the tube phenomenon. I recently watched a Techmoan video on YouTube where he demo'd a 'tube processor' which basically just runs the sound through the tubes without amplification, thus applying the sound signature of tubes. It looks very interesting, because it would be nice to have a warmer sound, but I don't know what else is being introduced to the signal in terms of noise, distortion etc.

YAQIN SD CD3 6 N8P/6SN7 Stereo Tube Audio Upgrade Slang Buffer Processor

This one?