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If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

audimus

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This is a misunderstanding of what you are adjusting, the idea is you EQ back to what would be flat in an anechoic chamber, which produces a slope in room.

Yes and no. What is termed as “room equalization” procedure (not just the auto-tuning) compensates for several things at once (even if it is not marketed as such because only one of those reasons works well as a marketing message).

1. The non-linearities inherent in the components in the audio chain (particularly speakers) independent of the room characteristics that will exist in an anechoic chamber as well with the same equipment and will need correction. This can be seen as a move towards perfect reproduction with less than perfect equipment. This just brings it closer to whatever target curve one chooses but not influence the target curve itself.
2. The room absorption and reflection characteristics that would not exist in an anechoic chamber. This can also be seen as a move towards perfect reproduction but there is anecdotal evidence that this by itself does not result in perception as good sound. While this might set the general characteristic of a target curve, there is no “single curve that fits all” as would happen if the goal was just to replicate an anechoic chamber.
3. A human ear’s varying efficiencies across the spectrum which would also exist in anechoic chambers. Outside the auto-tuning features, the systems allow the target curves to be modified with more slope, or more or less “room gain” in the lower frequencies, altering the slope at higher frequencies, etc to what one perceives as better sounding. This need would exist even if one was listening in an anechoic chamber.

There is anecdotal evidence that a single slope does not work for everybody which would appear to suggest that people don’t necessarily have a preference for exactly what they might hear in an anechoic chamber with perfect transparency to necessarily choose that in a well-designed blind test. Choosing that strict criterion is more of an “acquired taste” for intellectual reasons and hence subjective while attempts to achieve that might be objectively conducted.
 
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Daverz

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I have to admit that my own tube journey was based on the mystique. I seem to have worked that out of my system after a few rounds of replacing power tubes every 2 years at about $400/octet. I still use my BAT 3iX pre-amp, but the big Rogue monoblock amps put out too much heat for inland Southern California summers.

Designers seem to enjoy designing them. Bob Carver, for example, only makes tube amps now after becoming famous for his solid state designs.
 

Ron Texas

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I wouldn't say tube sound is a myth. There are frequency response variations which can be induced with EQ.
 

audimus

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It is perfectly fine to do to accommodate your personal preference, but as to individual differences in human ears, there is no such compensation when you hear a live concert, a human voice or a dog barking - wouldn't you want the reproduction of the recorded version to sound the same as the original one?

There is much ambiguity as to what is the “original one” to come up with a meaningful definition of the target and the degree of deviation matters.

For example, what you hear in a concert varies a lot depending on where you are seated to have a single meaningful definition of what is “original sound”. Yet, it does not prevent one from enjoying it in multiple interpretations. In fact, some positions in a concert may be outright bad to some (say too close to a speaker) or good for some depending on their hearing. What is a reasonable assumption to make is that there is a limited range of deviations in sound of the performance within reason that are all equally enjoyable and considered “authentic”. Any recording of that concert is ONE such deviation, no such thing as THE original sound.

There is a danger of running into imperfection fallacies in logic to extrapolate that deviation to extremes.

Clearly, one would want the human voice to sound like a human voice and so one is not talking about gross deviations that make it otherwise. But within the limits of what everyone perceives as human voice and even further recognizable as some particular person’s authentic voice, the balance of frequencies might certainly vary while still being wholly acceptable and enjoyable (and not even perceivable as different except in relation to another nearby balance with A/B testing). There is no reason to deny the possibility that some may have a preference for one balance over the other given a choice without going into absurd logical extremes of assuming the voice no longer sounds like voice.
 

Julf

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For example, what you hear in a concert varies a lot depending on where you are seated to have a single meaningful definition of what is “original sound”.

The "original sound" would be the sound at that exact location. In the case of a (simplistic) recording, the "original sound" is what goes into the mic (or in the case of a complex, produced recording, what comes out of the production process).
 

Cosmik

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Tubes are microphonic. There is an actual, physical, objective reason why they might sound different from solid state: because they respond to acoustic feedback in the room, notably resonances. This would be a little like a real, live performance where acoustic feedback into mics, drum skins, open strings etc. really does change the sound, making it respond to the room.
 

audimus

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The "original sound" would be the sound at that exact location. In the case of a (simplistic) recording, the "original sound" is what goes into the mic (or in the case of a complex, produced recording, what comes out of the production process).

I think you are missing the point.

Most people, even in that audience, will not hear exactly that particular “original sound” at that one arbitrary location and it isn’t necessary to do so to enjoy and perceive that concert as “real”perhaps even more than that recording. Therefore there is no reason to “perfectly replicate that particular recording”. As long what is reproduced is within the range of what people may hear within a concert, it is just fine.

Moreover, some people do have a preference of where to sit in a concert if possible based on their tonal balance preference, the acoustics of a particular venue and ear acuity. A modeling amp that would allow you to dial in the balance you want is, one can argue, reproducing the reality of a concert better than all being forced to hear just from one forced location. Imagine an amp which would allow you to dial in what you may hear of a live recording based on where you may be seated - in front row, in the gallery, etc., based on your preference. That is a better system than living in this self-imposed shackle of one single recording being this ideal of perfection and striving to achieve exactly that.
 

ahofer

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Tubes are microphonic. There is an actual, physical, objective reason why they might sound different from solid state: because they respond to acoustic feedback in the room, notably resonances. This would be a little like a real, live performance where acoustic feedback into mics, drum skins, open strings etc. really does change the sound, making it respond to the room.
Indeed. Turntables can also do this. It does create a more "live" feeling.
 

levimax

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I got into tubes because I was sick of throwing away fancy and expensive SS amps after 5- 15 years because it was "unrepairable". Tube amps,especially vintage ones, use standard parts and can be easily.and cheaply repaired. I have gotten away from tubes now but still keep some around for " fun"....also for backup in case of an EMP attack.
 

Julf

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Indeed. Turntables can also do this. It does create a more "live" feeling.

It is also easily simulated with a digital reverb unit.
 

Julf

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Most people, even in that audience, will not hear exactly that particular “original sound” at that one arbitrary location and it isn’t necessary to do so to enjoy and perceive that concert as “real”perhaps even more than that recording. Therefore there is no reason to “perfectly replicate that particular recording”. As long what is reproduced is within the range of what people may hear within a concert, it is just fine.

Isn't that a bit like saying "a window doesn't really need to be that transparent because sometimes it rains" or "a camera lens doesn't need to be very accurate, people are used to fuzzy pictures"? My point is that we do have clear, objective standards for accuracy and transparency that are independent of individual taste and preference - "what comes out should be (audibly) the same as what went in".
 

Wombat

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Microphonic tubes/circuits have no place in HiFi. Their is a difference between a tube making a noise when struck vs when playing music. If you need to apply damping techniques to tubes in hifi gear you likely need better mechanically constructed tubes. Of course these remaining relics are pricey.

In the tube-era this was not a problem with well designed home audio gear.
 

audimus

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Isn't that a bit like saying "a window doesn't really need to be that transparent because sometimes it rains" or "a camera lens doesn't need to be very accurate, people are used to fuzzy pictures"?

Not.even.close.
 

Julf

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DonH56

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A perfect camera taking perfect pictures from different angles will present perfectly different images that some will like, some will not...
 

scott wurcer

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A perfect camera taking perfect pictures from different angles will present perfectly different images that some will like, some will not...

I'm reminded of discussions with cinephiles about the lengths the greatest cinematographers went to to bend their mediums. It's like saying they all wished they had the latest 4K digital cameras.
 

bravomail

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why bother with tubes instead of solid state?

Mostly for commercial reasons, as audiophiles will eat any horse shirt you throw at them, which has been proven time and time and time again.
1) Tubes don't live long. Extra cha-ching for new tubes every now and then.
2) Tubes require high voltage and get hot, extra equipment and space to manage it (bigger cases). Cha-ching
3) Tubes eat more electicity - indirect cha-ching
4) Tube amps have high output impedance, which is not a problem if you have special (not your consumer 32 Ohm) headphones (cha-ching)
5) tube amp high output impedance can be solved by adding extra transformer (cha-ching!)
6) tube amps show enourmous amount of distortions and coloration, but that's what we call "audiophile sound"!
 

Julf

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A perfect camera taking perfect pictures from different angles will present perfectly different images that some will like, some will not...

Indeed. But that is a question of individual taste/preference. The "perfect" part is still what we can judge objectively.
 

Blumlein 88

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Microphonic tubes/circuits have no place in HiFi. Their is a difference between a tube making a noise when struck vs when playing music. If you need to apply damping techniques to tubes in hifi gear you likely need better mechanically constructed tubes. Of course these remaining relics are pricey.

In the tube-era this was not a problem with well designed home audio gear.
Wasn't a problem with the Nuvistor based tube pre I once had either. Plus Nuvistors have a long, long lifespan.
 
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