If Bits are Bits

[restorer-john]

Streaming is the public toilet of music listening- just there for convenience and hardly a joyful experience. You have no idea how clean it is.

CDs on the other hand, offer an uncorrupted, repeatable, clean and issue-free stream of music. A source where the provenance is either clear, or can be very easily determined.

 

[goat76]

I really should do more digging, but from what I read at some point on tech pages of Spotify and [I think] Tidal, pretty much all streaming services have mandatory limiter with undisclosed parameters for all played material, without the possibility to turn it off. That would change the sound, wouldn't it? Even if the source masters were the same.

They are not using any limiters, the normalization the streaming services use is just level reduction.

 

[Deleted member 21114]

Streaming is the public toilet of music listening

 

[RayDunzl]

Why does a CD redbook player sound better than a Streamer at 44.1/16, or even DSD.

Watermarks.

(Are they still doing that?)

https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark

 

[Ifrit]

They are not using any limiters, the normalization the streaming services use is just level reduction.

We apply a limiter to prevent distortion and clipping in soft dynamic tracks. The limiter’s set to engage at -1 dB (sample values), with a 5 ms attack time and a 100 ms decay time.

Apparently not used on all settings, but loudness normalization still works both ways.
I am sure others use something like that as well.

Watermarks.

(Are they still doing that?)

https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark

Isn’t it only on HiRes material?

 

[Takaya]

So how did you go about getting provenance that it's actually the same file? Did you do a proper level matched, blinded test with quick switching.... or ?

ps Been enthusiastic about buying hifi gear since 72 myself....that's not a particular skill nor does it give you special hearing skills....

But every CD i buy sounds better than the stream. Files have bits correct. Both are 44.1/16 according to the streamer readout on the iPad. I am just trying to find out why there is a difference. It is not a subtle difference.

 

[Chrispy]

But every CD i buy sounds better than the stream. Files have bits correct. Both are 44.1/16 according to the streamer readout on the iPad. I am just trying to find out why there is a difference. It is not a subtle difference.

I've just not had a similar experience. Hard to know why you have one or how you judge it/compare it.....I do just generally use a service like Spotify or Pandora to explore new stuff to buy, as my preference is streaming my own rips on my own network. I tend to just play the cd once and put it away as there's never been a reason to do otherwise.....

 

[danadam]

We apply a limiter to prevent distortion and clipping in soft dynamic tracks. The limiter’s set to engage at -1 dB (sample values), with a 5 ms attack time and a 100 ms decay time.

Apparently not used on all settings, but loudness normalization still works both ways.

Why so vague? Used only in one setting, Loud, which is not a default one.

 

[Ifrit]

Why so vague? Used only in one setting, Loud, which is not a default one.

Point is the use of loudness normalization. In addition to lossy codec. Vague seems to be the trend, nobody wants you to know what the heck they do to your music.

But there was a limiter in there before. So I am outdated.

 

[Yuhasz01]

But seriously, the first question should be: are the bits the same bits? Streaming services usually only have one version of an album, and usually they are recent (remasters). Most people with a lot of CD’s had them for decades. Fact is that between then and now, there may have been half a dozen rereleases, and none of them are the same. Just check https://dr.loudness-war.info/ , and see how the dynamic range changed throughout the years. Usually the older releases have the better DR.

Now if you rip your CD’s properly and use a streamer to play the same files, they shouldn’t sound any different.

And if the streaming service has the same master as your CD, I would also not expect any difference, especially when using a lossless service.

Also, read up on how to do a proper listening test. Just a casual listen is not good enough. You’ll need to have some basic controls in place to remove your own biases.

Helpful detailed reply. All comments should follow your lead; many do and many don’t here.

 

[gags11]

Sorry for ignorance or not reading the whole thread.

But to the OP:

Bits are really bits… most 1080p movies on a blu-ray disk at really high bit rate will look better than a 4k stream on any network with low bit rate.

However, a better recorded song or a movie will sound or look better at a low bit rate than a bad recording at any bit rate.

… and almost forgot, there are also limits to what bits you can hear or see.

Anything beyond that is misperception, see video below.

 

[Yuhasz01]

I read right here on ASR that the internet is dirty. Maybe the bits just need a good scrub and polish

Condescending comments like this, and your others, are better shared on other snide forums.

 

[restorer-john]

Condescending comments like this, and your others, are better shared on other snide forums.

 

[threni]

Condescending comments like this, and your others, are better shared on other snide forums.

Everyone behave - the sheriff's back in town.

 

[danadam]

Vague seems to be the trend, nobody wants you to know what the heck they do to your music.

To clarify, my "vague" was pointed at your "Apparently not used on all settings"

 

[Ifrit]

To clarify, my "vague" was pointed at your "Apparently not used on all settings"

Oh I read you loud and clear. Doesn’t make my comments any less truthful.

 

[Galliardist]

I read right here on ASR that the internet is dirty. Maybe the bits just need a good scrub and polish

What, with that excellent full strength cleaner of everything, snake oil?

 

[JSmith]

I read right here on ASR that the internet is dirty. Maybe the bits just need a good scrub and polish

I like the dirty bit... those black eyed peas do too I hear.


JSmith

 

[SKBubba]

But every CD i buy sounds better than the stream. Files have bits correct. Both are 44.1/16 according to the streamer readout on the iPad. I am just trying to find out why there is a difference. It is not a subtle difference.

What streaming service are you using? What streaming device/dac are you using? What streaming software? What streaming quality do you have it set to? Mobile, wifi, or wired ethernet? What CD player are you using? What is the signal path from each? What settings are used for each? What amp inputs? Speakers, headphones, earbuds, wired, bluetooth, or what? Not enough information to even speculate as to an explanation for what you are hearing or not hearing.

(P.S. Your ipad will show 16/44.1 for a decoded 96kbs mp3 stream and the same for a 1441kbs redbook cd stream decoded from flac or from cd playback. Also, how is your cd player connected to your ipad?)

This is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

 

[Galliardist]

Ignore everyone who says you are not wrong. The voltage is irrelevant - you're dealing with binary ones and zeros. You could print them onto paper and read back. Some people would say black dots are louder than grey dots. Ignore those people. As long as the bits get from a to b without issue they're identical, always.

The voltage referred to here is the output analogue voltage from the DAC, not that of the digital signal going in. There are a number of implications of having a higher output voltage and they don't all favour the higher voltage (for example noise may also be higher). The main thing is that it can be relevant. Otherwise, why would certain CD players or DACs present higher voltages, or even the option of changing it?