If Bits are Bits

[Sal1950]

We hear from folks that bits are bits. Why does a CD redbook player sound better than a Streamer at 44.1/16, or even DSD.

The DSD is a different master than the CD, so all bets are off

 

[DonR]

The DSD is a different master than the CD, so all bets are off

Lucky for him he didn't say MQA.

 

[Galliardist]

Sorry folks, my first post. I had a 20+ year old Micromega Stage 6, Now a Bryston BCD-3, First DAC was a Halide HD, was better than Apple headphone jack, then upgraded to lindemann limetree network streamer. i prefer my Dacs to be in the same box as the CD/network device. I am just looking for reasons why the CD player is bang on, and the streamer/dac does not have the same great sound. Are they not both 44.1/16?? There are a few youtubers that love CD's over Streaming for the sound. There has to be a reason. Oh i am using Tidal 44.1 service. Maybe someone can science an answer. Hint intended Amir.

What does "science an answer" mean? There's no pithy one line "science" answer, despite what people of all audiophile persuasions will sometimes tell you. If you want to know why you hear this, you have to do the work to find out, is the truth.

So you have a Bryston BCD-3 CD player and a Lindemann Limetree network streamer. And you have ears and a brain.

There might just be a technical answer somewhere in all of this, a matter of input and output impedence or voltages, streamer settings, or something like that. It's happened before.

The first stage in looking at a question like this is to get hold of the specifications and any measurements for all of your devices, and check for potential mismatch. It can happen.

Secondly, you need to perform a blind level matched test with all known causes of difference made inaudible (so level matched, sharp filters chosen, etc) and see if the difference still exists. Of course, to do that requires patience and some assistance.

if the difference suddenly disappears, it is most likely to be something about the way your brain interprets the sound when you can see the equipment, it is playing at different levels etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you if that happens. You're human, like all of us. The way the brain processes music is complex, and depends on things other than what comes through the aural nerve, and we all have to live with that.

If it stubbornly refuses to go away, or you don't want to go down that route, then you can dig deeper by measuring your equipment, null testing recordings of the outputs, etc. There are examples of how to do such things scattered around the site if you want to go to those lengths, and when you have some "proper questions" people can give you "proper answers".

Or, much easier, keep buying CDs. Enjoying music is much better for us than worrying about hifi problems!

 

[Takaya]

What streaming service are you using? What streaming device/dac are you using? What streaming software? What streaming quality do you have it set to? Mobile, wifi, or wired ethernet? What CD player are you using? What is the signal path from each? What settings are used for each? What amp inputs? Speakers, headphones, earbuds, wired, bluetooth, or what? Not enough information to even speculate as to an explanation for what you are hearing or not hearing.

(P.S. Your ipad will show 16/44.1 for a decoded 96kbs mp3 stream and the same for a 1441kbs redbook cd stream decoded from flac or from cd playback. Also, how is your cd player connected to your ipad?)

This is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

i posted what i am and had listened too. The iPad is for the Streamer like a remote control with a screen. Although i could connect the CD player to the internet to use iPad, but that option slows down the boot up of the CD player, it will show the DAC temperature though. Just in case your computer can't see the other pages,current> Lindemann Limetree Network, Bryston BCD-3. Previous>MicroMega Stage6, Halide DAC HD coupled to MacBook Air

 

[Takaya]

What does "science an answer" mean? There's no pithy one line "science" answer, despite what people of all audiophile persuasions will sometimes tell you. If you want to know why you hear this, you have to do the work to find out, is the truth.

So you have a Bryston BCD-3 CD player and a Lindemann Limetree network streamer. And you have ears and a brain.

There might just be a technical answer somewhere in all of this, a matter of input and output impedence or voltages, streamer settings, or something like that. It's happened before.

The first stage in looking at a question like this is to get hold of the specifications and any measurements for all of your devices, and check for potential mismatch. It can happen.

Secondly, you need to perform a blind level matched test with all known causes of difference made inaudible (so level matched, sharp filters chosen, etc) and see if the difference still exists. Of course, to do that requires patience and some assistance.

if the difference suddenly disappears, it is most likely to be something about the way your brain interprets the sound when you can see the equipment, it is playing at different levels etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you if that happens. You're human, like all of us. The way the brain processes music is complex, and depends on things other than what comes through the aural nerve, and we all have to live with that.

If it stubbornly refuses to go away, or you don't want to go down that route, then you can dig deeper by measuring your equipment, null testing recordings of the outputs, etc. There are examples of how to do such things scattered around the site if you want to go to those lengths, and when you have some "proper questions" people can give you "proper answers".

Or, much easier, keep buying CDs. Enjoying music is much better for us than worrying about hifi problems!

So you don't know either "why CD's sound better". That is what i am hoping to learn. Some kind folks have stated the internet is dirty, that streaming services limit their streams. The difference that i hear is clear.

 

[Takaya]

Lucky for him he didn't say MQA.

The Limetree has the option to convert the stream to DSD. It sounds better with it on, just not a good as the CD does.

 

[Galliardist]

So you don't know either "why CD's sound better". That is what i am hoping to learn. Some kind folks have stated the internet is dirty, that streaming services limit their streams. The difference that i hear is clear.

Look, the theory is that CDs don't "sound better". At least, assuming a similar playback and the same bits.

And your question, really, is not why CDs "sound better". It is why you experience CDs sounding better. There is a big difference between the two.

 

[Ifrit]

The DSD is a different master than the CD, so all bets are off

Not necessarily. Nowadays it’s way too easy to create all necessary deliverables from the same session, there’s really no reason to create different set of files. Takes more time for the same amount of money, with no apparent benefit.

 

[DonR]

The DAC is rated as Poor by Amir https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/lindemann-limetree-review-streamer.28210/ due to distortion. Not sure why converting to DSD should improve the sound as it will just shift an already likely inaudible noise floor out of band.

 

[Galliardist]

The DAC is rated as Poor by Amir https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/lindemann-limetree-review-streamer.28210/ due to distortion. Not sure why converting to DSD should improve the sound as it will just shift an already likely inaudible noise floor out of band.

There may be a different filter used in the DSD conversion?

His previous combination may have been better. The Halide DAC looks better than the Lindemann and still sounded worse than CD. Still, we have a potentially audible difference with current pair. The Bryston apparently measures well. Ah, here it is:

Bryston BCD-3 CD player Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements As with the Hegel Music Systems Mohican, which we reviewed in the May issue, the Bryston BCD-3 has no digital inputs of any kind. This limited my measurement of its technical behavior to using 16-bit test files burned to a CD-R. (I sometimes had to eject and reload a CD-R...

www.stereophile.com

It'll do according to Stereophile. And the Halide:

Halide Design DAC HD D/A converter Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I measured the Halide DAC HD with Stereophile's loan sample of the top-of-the-line Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see www.ap.com and the January 2008 "As We See It"); for some tests, I also used my vintage Audio Precision System One Dual Domain.

www.stereophile.com

 

[DonR]

There may be a different filter used in the DSD conversion?

His previous combination may have been better. The Halide DAC looks better than the Lindemann and still sounded worse than CD. Still, we have a potentially audible difference with current pair. The Bryston apparently measures well. Ah, here it is:

Bryston BCD-3 CD player Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements As with the Hegel Music Systems Mohican, which we reviewed in the May issue, the Bryston BCD-3 has no digital inputs of any kind. This limited my measurement of its technical behavior to using 16-bit test files burned to a CD-R. (I sometimes had to eject and reload a CD-R...

www.stereophile.com

It'll do according to Stereophile. And the Halide:

Halide Design DAC HD D/A converter Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I measured the Halide DAC HD with Stereophile's loan sample of the top-of-the-line Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see www.ap.com and the January 2008 "As We See It"); for some tests, I also used my vintage Audio Precision System One Dual Domain.

www.stereophile.com

Outside of a blind test I cannot give any credence to assumed audible differences. There are just too many influencing biases.

 

[kemmler3D]

it is most likely to be something about the way your brain interprets the sound when you can see the equipment

^^^^

 

[Tangband]

I have purchased CD's after streaming something new to me and liking the music. The CD just stomps on the stream. There has to be a reason that I can hear this difference at 65 years old. Been an audiophile since 1986.

Your statement is not true regarding CD and streamers. The answer to your question has already been answered many times in your thread. You should read it .

Your Limetree streamer is not a good player - get proper gear .

Lindemann Limetree Review (streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Lindemann Limetree streamer and DAC (original version). It is on kind loan from a member and cost US €895 (about US $1,000). I like the white color box: Otherwise this is standard hobby/budget project box. Inputs and output are typical for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[threni]

The voltage referred to here is the output analogue voltage from the DAC, not that of the digital signal going in. There are a number of implications of having a higher output voltage and they don't all favour the higher voltage (for example noise may also be higher). The main thing is that it can be relevant. Otherwise, why would certain CD players or DACs present higher voltages, or even the option of changing it?

Bits = Binary Digits. Clearly the analogue output of a device does not make a case either way in a discussion about whether bits = bits what with them not outputting bits.

 

[Galliardist]

Outside of a blind test I cannot give any credence to assumed audible differences. There are just many influencing biases.

Agreed. Let's see if our OP is prepared to put in the work.

 

[Galliardist]

Bits = Binary Digits. Clearly the analogue output of a device does not make a case either way in a discussion about whether bits = bits what with them not outputting bits.

As it happens, I do know what a bit is, but thanks for the reminder.

But the analogue output stage is part of the deal. If we take two DACs that are identical, except that one has a highly distorting output stage and the other is effectively transparent, is the difference we will hear down to the bits?

The comments about difference that you responded to were about analogue output stages in the devices possibly causing the audible difference heard by the OP - who is of course not hearing the bits that aren't output by the device. I'm not sure why you find this so hard to work out.

 

[solderdude]

So you don't know either "why CD's sound better". That is what i am hoping to learn. Some kind folks have stated the internet is dirty, that streaming services limit their streams. The difference that i hear is clear.

CD sounds 'better' to you on different equipment than a stream. You are comparing apples to oranges.
You don't know what master is used.
You use different gear
You clearly know what you are listening to (bias creeps in)
Levels may not be the same.

Too many variables to draw any conclusion. Yet, your mind is set and demand a technical explanation for what you hear on your gear while knowing what you are listening to in uncontrolled conditions.

Give us something to work with.
Record the analog output of your CDP and streamer (an excerpt is good enough where you clearly hear the differences) and post it.

 

[Trell]

CD sounds 'better' to you on different equipment than a stream. You are comparing apples to oranges.
You don't know what master is used.
You use different gear
You clearly know what you are listening to (bias creeps in)
Levels may not be the same.

Too many variables to draw any conclusion. Yet, your mind is set and demand a technical explanation for what you hear on your gear while knowing what you are listening to in uncontrolled conditions.

Give us something to work with.
Record the analog output of your CDP and streamer (an excerpt is good enough where you clearly hear the differences) and post it.

We're on page five and the OP still don't get it.

 

[Sokel]

The DSD is a different master than the CD, so all bets are off

Not only that but it can be handled differently than PCM in the same DAC.

 

[antcollinet]

But every CD i buy sounds better than the stream. Files have bits correct. Both are 44.1/16 according to the streamer readout on the iPad. I am just trying to find out why there is a difference. It is not a subtle difference.

Both are 44.1/16 is hardly confirmation that the bits are the same.

You've had many answers informing you the possible reasons for differences you hear.

It is now up to you (only you can do it) to confirm the bits are the same some how, OR (probably easier) to do a properly controlled, statistically valid blind test to prove you can actually hear the difference.

You'll have to do the second one anyway, if the first confirms bits are the same, so you may as well start there. It should be easy if the difference is as clear as you say, right?