If Bits are Bits

[antcollinet]

We hear from folks that bits are bits. Why does a CD redbook player sound better than a Streamer at 44.1/16, or even DSD.

For your science based answer a simple 3 possibilities (assuming amp/speakers/room are the same)


1 - The bits are different for reasons given above.
2 - The dacs used by the CD player and the streamer are different and one or both are doing a bad job, or the levels of the outputs are not matched
3 - There is no difference to be heard, and any percieved difference is down to one or more of the many cognitive biases.

Pick one. Or combine any, as you like.

 

[fpitas]

I read right here on ASR that the internet is dirty. Maybe the bits just need a good scrub and polish

 

[Tangband]

Sorry folks, my first post. I had a 20+ year old Micromega Stage 6, Now a Bryston BCD-3, First DAC was a Halide HD, was better than Apple headphone jack, then upgraded to lindemann limetree network streamer. i prefer my Dacs to be in the same box as the CD/network device. I am just looking for reasons why the CD player is bang on, and the streamer/dac does not have the same great sound. Are they not both 44.1/16?? There are a few youtubers that love CD's over Streaming for the sound. There has to be a reason. Oh i am using Tidal 44.1 service. Maybe someone can science an answer. Hint intended Amir.

Newer remasters are often more compressed and worse sounding than the first edition. The streaming services often uses the latest version. In this case, the streamer with the newer master will sound worse than the CD player. Technically, a good streamer can sound BETTER than a good CD player - no moving parts with a motor running, no noise from servos, and higher resolution than 16 bit 44,1 kHz If the source material are of higher resolution.

The biggest faults in less good streamers seems to be data truncation and bad sample rate conversions. A good streamer dont have those issues.

 

[solderdude]

We hear from folks that bits are bits. Why does a CD redbook player sound better than a Streamer at 44.1/16, or even DSD.

Rip your CD and play it over the streamer ... still a difference in sound ?

Are you comparing streaming services with a CD you own ? They may not be the same master.

 

[tuga]

We hear from folks that bits are bits. Why does a CD redbook player sound better than a Streamer at 44.1/16, or even DSD.

Bits are bits. Then they are converted and the signal goes through the analogue stage.

Different masters, different resolutions, lossy compression, different filters or no filter, different output stages - all potential causes for audible differences.

 

[Tangband]

Bits are bits. Then they are converted and the signal go through the analogue stage.

Different masters, different resolutions, lossy compression, different filters or no filter, different output stages - all potential causes for audible differences.

Yes - and we cant blaim all streamers for those differences . There are good and less good ones , just like CD players. Biggest differences are often different masters. The biggest advantage of good streamers regarding soundquality, are the ability to play high res material.

 

[Rednaxela]

All bits are equal but some are just more equal than others.

 

[voodooless]

All bits are equal but some are just more equal than others.

Ah, nowadays it’s all about equity anyway…

 

[Chrispy]

Seriously not trolling, just looking for a science answer.

Wouldn't that take a scientific approach from your side first? You've just given an opinion/assertion without anything particular to go on otherwise.

 

[Takaya]

On the subject of streaming quality vs CD, there is a pretty good thread here with some measured evaluation.

https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/threads/streaming-services-technically-compromised-compared-with-cd.80585/

tl;dr bit perfect if played from the same master, but very often different master recordings.

Crap, can't see this unless i sign up.

 

[Takaya]

I have purchased CD's after streaming something new to me and liking the music. The CD just stomps on the stream. There has to be a reason that I can hear this difference at 65 years old. Been an audiophile since 1986.

 

[Chrispy]

I have purchased CD's after streaming something new to me and liking the music. The CD just stomps on the stream. There has to be a reason that I can hear this difference at 65 years old. Been an audiophile since 1986.

So how did you go about getting provenance that it's actually the same file? Did you do a proper level matched, blinded test with quick switching.... or ?

ps Been enthusiastic about buying hifi gear since 72 myself....that's not a particular skill nor does it give you special hearing skills....

 

[Andretti60]

I have purchased CD's after streaming something new to me and liking the music. The CD just stomps on the stream. There has to be a reason that I can hear this difference at 65 years old. Been an audiophile since 1986.

It happens to me often, I have good quality CDs (for example from ECM) and when I hear the same album from a streaming service I noticed right away that they are sometimes from a different master and sometimes they are two completely different recordings.
And by the way, the same happened in the 80s with the introduction of the CD, when the fight was between digital and analog, it was difficult to make the comparison because many times the source was different.

 

[Trell]

A streaming device/service can do various changes to the music that will not be present on a CD, so I for sure think that people can hear differences.

On the RME forum there is recent thread where the OP posted that users of a streaming device complained about distorted music while the RME ADI-2 DAC FS said the bit test passed.

It turns out that the streamer applied a limiter/DRC with a threshold level of -1.2 dBFS. The RME bit test is 100ms long and no new tests are performed during the 2 seconds display of failed/passed.

This is what RME said in post 32:

>>>Well, re-reading the first posts everyone was right. You clearly asked about high order third harmonics added. You did not talk about a complex FX with attack and release times working on the digital signal - and most probably nobody expected this to exist in a streamer device. At least not me<<<

Bitperfect test and harmonic distortions (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

 

[Ifrit]

I really should do more digging, but from what I read at some point on tech pages of Spotify and [I think] Tidal, pretty much all streaming services have mandatory limiter with undisclosed parameters for all played material, without the possibility to turn it off. That would change the sound, wouldn't it? Even if the source masters were the same.

 

[threni]

I have purchased CD's after streaming something new to me and liking the music. The CD just stomps on the stream. There has to be a reason that I can hear this difference at 65 years old. Been an audiophile since 1986.

You can hear the difference because there is a difference. Bits = bits doesn't mean two people can't call different things by the same name. It just means if you copy a number (that's what digital music is) perfectly it doesn't matter if you copy it by downloading it from a server to a file, copying a cd, streaming it etc. If the number doesn't get altered on the way, it will sound the same. It has to - it's the same number. How can it sound any different? The difference you can hear is just like the difference you can taste if you go to india and have a vegetable curry then come back to your local supermarket and buy a vegetable curry. The only thing they've got in common is the name.

 

[Chrispy]

I really should do more digging, but from what I read at some point on tech pages of Spotify and [I think] Tidal, pretty much all streaming services have mandatory limiter with undisclosed parameters for all played material, without the possibility to turn it off. That would change the sound, wouldn't it? Even if the source masters were the same.

It could also be just dissimilar playback settings or level of subscription to an extent, too.

 

[Ifrit]

It could also be just dissimilar playback settings or level of subscription to an extent, too.

Yes, lossy compression has been mentioned here before.

 

[Trell]

You can hear the difference because there is a difference. Bits = bits doesn't mean two people can't call different things by the same name. It just means if you copy a number (that's what digital music is) perfectly it doesn't matter if you copy it by downloading it from a server to a file, copying a cd, streaming it etc. If the number doesn't get altered on the way, it will sound the same. It has to - it's the same number. How can it sound any different? The difference you can hear is just like the difference you can taste if you go to india and have a vegetable curry then come back to your local supermarket and buy a vegetable curry. The only thing they've got in common is the name.

The implied assumptions is that the source is identical to the CD and that the streamed bits are not changed on the way. Both of them may or may not be true.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, lossy compression has been mentioned here before.

Sometimes just general playback settings....some come as default that I get rid of.