I have a question, has anyone else noticed this?

[abdo123]

That is a good point, typically i only give subjective impressions when i have actually owned or heard the device.

But yeah i obviously don't own everything Amir reviews and I generally form an opinion and comment about what is the best use case for a device based on the data presented.

Please keep in mind btw that anechoic data are THE BEST thing to use for subwoofer integration. It makes it so much easier and simpler and i do it all the time.

I can use High pass filters and linkwitz transforms to adjust the low frequency extension of any speaker to how i want it (based on the situation) and i can pick the compromise that fit me the most.

I have never integrated a subwoofer based on in-room measurements, it's like trying to develop a crossover using in-room measurements, it's messy and half-assed.

 

[abdo123]

And when people show up that mention that the device died after a couple of months, has channel imbalance or other problems that stuff gets usually ignored.

That stuff is never ignored.

 

[abdo123]

I sometimes wonder if the opposite suggestion might be better - don't post if you own the stuff.

 

[threni]

Doesn't matter if you own it. I don't own a Windows laptop but I've used them for years and am competent to give useful advice on them vs Linux, MacBooks etc. And there's no way you're going to be able to enforce competence in a topic on an internet forum - it's going to come down to trust.

 

[clearnfc]

I'm a little confused by the OP, isn't the point of this forum that people can (and are encouraged to) extrapolate from the measurements? There are many here that say something along the lines of "the only thing that matters is the measurements" and put little to no value in subjective impressions (sometimes they say they can't "trust" their own ears). I think I'd more or less agree with this for everything, save speakers. Speakers are an interesting case, in that I don't think one size fits all; there isn't a perfect speaker and measurements may not convey everything about how a speaker subjectively sounds, to you.

Everything that isn't double blind tested with a good number of participants is considered subjective and some dismiss subjective impressions on the basis that it is sighted, not double blind and so on.

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle. Subjective impressions do have some value, but it seems what you're asking for is more subjective impressions, just that the subjective impressions should be based on experience of the product rather than measurements taken by Amir.

Err.... Blind test itself is a form of subjective test.

 

[clearnfc]

staging/imaging cannot be measured directly but they are functions of the parameters that are measured, and placebo is always a factor in any sighted listening.

Could you show us which function and which parameter?? Btw, you dont need any blind test for this. Check out LEDR.

Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test

Audio Test Tones : check your stereo system for correct imaging

www.audiocheck.net

 

[clearnfc]

Is that so different from here?

Amir reviews something bad and 100 people will vote like the product is Garbage. And I'm sure that 95% have never even seen or heard the Device.

Same if something gets highly recommended.. suddenly everyone says that's all you ever need and suggests it to everyone asking questions and looking for recommendations.

And when people show up that mention that the device died after a couple of months, has channel imbalance or other problems that stuff gets usually ignored.

Regarding this, yes i have to agree.

Seriously, does owning the equipment meant anything? Owning a pair of speakers or an amp does not mean the owner has the capacity to evaluate its performance accurately. Accurate testing is very costly and also takes alot of time and effort.

Then how about accuracy of the results? Who could verify that the tests are indeed performed correctly?

 

[Axo1989]

Could you show us which function and which parameter?? Btw, you dont need any blind test for this. Check out LEDR.

Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test

Audio Test Tones : check your stereo system for correct imaging

www.audiocheck.net

That's a fun test for getting an idea of system performance on spatial basics. Mine is generally good, but not so much with height.

 

[Axo1989]

staging/imaging cannot be measured directly but they are functions of the parameters that are measured, and placebo is always a factor in any sighted listening.

Are you being specific, ie referring to actual functions you can link or reference? That would be great, obviously. Or are you making a general argument that we should be able to create function that do this (based on theory) but they aren't extant/tested/published yet? I agree, generally but would enjoy reading any specifics.

 

[Shazb0t]

I worry that Owner's threads will inherently promote tribalism. I find the lack of endorsement for that sort of behavior on ASR refreshing. So I'd approach the idea of starting them here with caution.

 

[clearnfc]

Are you being specific, ie referring to actual functions you can link or reference? That would be great, obviously. Or are you making a general argument that we should be able to create function that do this (based on theory) but they aren't extant/tested/published yet? I agree, generally but would enjoy reading any specifics.

Frankly, till today, i have never seen anyone who is able to measure stereo imaging effects objectively. I am 100% sure they dont show up in frequency/phase sweeps nor SINAD test.

 

[Axo1989]

Frankly, till today, i have never seen anyone who is able to measure stereo imaging effects objectively. I am 100% sure they dont show up in frequency/phase sweeps nor SINAD test.

Yes. I think if it is audible (which it is) then it must be measurable (at least in theory). I'd expect a complex function, with a number of inputs. My guess is that speaker and room characteristics are required along with suitable input signal of course. For a predictive function, then some sort of (standard-ish) room model would be likely. And so on.

 

[Mart68]

Are you being specific, ie referring to actual functions you can link or reference? That would be great, obviously. Or are you making a general argument that we should be able to create function that do this (based on theory) but they aren't extant/tested/published yet? I agree, generally but would enjoy reading any specifics.

Maybe I've been misunderstood. Obviously the information to create stage and imaging has to be on the recording to begin with.

Anything about the replay set-up that diminishes transfer of that information will degrade the image and stage. For electronics high levels of noise and distortion., For loudspeakers, on and off axis response, directivity both horizontal and vertical, and again distortion. Then add the room.

I cannot see any way of measuring the outcome directly though. Blind testing for stage/image preference with correlation to the above factors would be the only method of demonstrating this that I can think of.

 

[Axo1989]

Maybe I've been misunderstood. Obviously the information to create stage and imaging has to be on the recording to begin with.

Anything about the replay set-up that diminishes transfer of that information will degrade the image and stage. For electronics high levels of noise and distortion., For loudspeakers, on and off axis response, directivity both horizontal and vertical, and again distortion. Then add the room.

I cannot see any way of measuring the outcome directly though. Blind testing for stage/image preference would be the only method of demonstrating this that I can think of.

No misunderstanding, clarifying the ambiguity. By function you mean a thing dependant on another factor or factors, not a mathematical function. The former is obvious, the latter would be interesting. Such a function could be developed, but I'm guessing so far no one has done the work (at least, not that you are aware of).

 

[Mart68]

No misunderstanding, clarifying the ambiguity. Just a thing dependant on another factor or factors, not a mathematical function. The former is obvious, the latter would be interesting.

It would and maybe someone smarter than me can come up with it.

Essentially I'm saying that stage and imaging proficiency will correlate with measured performance, I don't see how it could not be, and I don't understand the reasoning that says those attributes can exist independently of the measured performance of a given loudspeaker.

 

[Axo1989]

It would and maybe someone smarter than me can come up with it.

Essentially I'm saying that stage and imaging proficiency will correlate with measured performance, I don't see how it could not be, and I don't understand the reasoning that says those attributes can exist independently of the measured performance of a given loudspeaker.

Then we want to know which measurements, and what contribution to the result (you made a list, but it's likely incomplete). Absent a tested function we don't have that answer.

 

[TLEDDY]

It does not occur to me to evaluate something I have not directly experienced. I gain knowledge and understanding from the reviews herein and sometimes seek out items to evaluate for myself based on those reviews.

Also, I draw a distinction between things that I have owned as opposed to listened at a show or friend’s home.

 

[Mart68]

Then we want to know which measurements, and what contribution to the result (you made a list, but it's likely incomplete). Absent a tested function we don't have that answer.

If that list is incomplete then it's up to the person saying that it is incomplete to suggest any additional parameters. Then we can discuss their relevance. I don't buy into the idea that there are 'unknown unknowns'.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Frankly, till today, i have never seen anyone who is able to measure stereo imaging effects objectively. I am 100% sure they dont show up in frequency/phase sweeps nor SINAD test.

Neither is "warmness" or "fun" or "cool beats". These are, just like stereo image effect, attributes of music, not hardware.

This place measures hardware, not music or the emotions it induces.

 

[Axo1989]

If that list is incomplete then it's up to the person saying that it is incomplete to suggest any additional parameters. Then we can discuss their relevance. I don't buy into the idea that there are 'unknown unknowns'.

I was interested in your suggested function, but we've clarified that you didn't mean it that way. That's not anyone's fault. Thanks for responding.