devinplombier
Member
Hi all, first post here.
I auditioned a pair of 8c Studios, in a studio where they were set up nearfield. I was surprised at how well they worked at such short distance, even if personally I would prefer them at 10-12 ft pumping out higher SPLs. In any event, let me get this out of the way: They sounded amazing. They are definitely one of the best speakers I have ever listened to.
I did some research prior to the audition, forming the impression that Dutch & Dutch intends the 8c to be an all-you-need system that, ideally at least, would only require AC and RJ-45 cables to work, and, perhaps more importantly, would effortlessly erase most rooms' quirks and imperfections. No more racks laden with components, boxes, interconnects, speaker cables, audiophile accoutrements, room treatments and such.
I liked that. The promise of just two handsome boxes gracing a listening room, effortlessly sweeping away said room's acoustical defects, is extremely attractive.
The 8cs' room correction software clearly meets its goal. It tames rooms so awkward no one would have ever considered them fit for critical listening.
That's all good! Now to the puzzling stuff and various head-scratchers.
Check out the 8c's digital inputs. No USB or I²S, just a single AES port. Here in this very informative and quite exhaustive review / interview, Dutch & Dutch's founder Martijn Mensik asserts those extra ports are not needed because
Fair enough. I assume Martijn spoke somewhat metaphorically since music over IP is, per se, not a thing. Did he mean Audio over IP? Is 8c compatible with AVB or Dante? I saw no evidence of that on D&D's website (nor of much of anything really, other than light marketing banter and pretty pictures). In any event, these are networking protocols and 8c still needs to connect to... something.
Indeed, the no-more-boxes promise is only possible if all processing / streaming takes place internally on the 8c, controlled by a tablet or device running some kind of UI front end.
Is that the way Roon integration works? I have no use for Roon so I am not very familiar with it, but I thought it required a computer to run the Roon "core". Does the Roon core run on 8c? Or does it still require a separate Windows or MacOS machine?
More importantly, are there currently ways to stream music over IP outside of Roon or Spotify?
If not, the dearth of input ports becomes problematic, because it forces users to resort to the very components and boxes 8c was supposed to do away with on the way to a clean, uncluttered future. But instead, you need... a preamp?
More options are better than fewer. Surely USB and I²S are supported in Pascal Audio's modules and the physical ports are quite small, making their exclusion appear to be a somewhat odd choice.
This brings us to a more high-level philosophical issue. When I'm buying 8cs, I'm not really just buying speakers. I'm primarily buying software, because it is software that makes these speakers sound so great. SEAS drivers, Pascal Audio modules, etc. are all fine components used in a number of fine products, but there is no doubt in my mind that a hypothetical pair of passive 8c with old-school passive crossovers would sound far, far worse than the real thing, even with the best electronics in the world behind them.
When you buy software, you also marry its developers, in a manner of speaking. You espouse their vision. Unlike Wilson Audio speakers or whatever, your 8cs will evolve over time. Five years from now, they will no longer be the 8cs you can buy today. You are trusting the developers to evolve the product in a direction that you agree with, and you look forward to your product getting better over time. When this kind of business model works, it's great; but it adds a not insubstantial amount of risk and uncertainty to an otherwise straightforward transaction. Many things can happen; a visionary founder may be replaced by a committee; a private equity firm might cash the founders out then set out to optimize returns; etc. That said, it isn't just new owners who can turn your remotely upgradeable product into something other than the product you loved and went for in the first place.
Why does this matter? Imagine if tomorrow Apple bought Dutch & Dutch. Apple famously hates FLACs. One morning, post-acquisition, you wake up to find out that your 8c no longer plays FLACs. Just saying
Enter Roon and Spotify. Now please, seriously, look at Spotify - 128 to 320kbps, no lossless plan although that's been promised for like seven years - what exactly is Spotify doing here? Who buys one of the best sound transducers in the world to stream eardrum-scraping low-res mp3s?
It's easy to see see how Roon facilitates a simpler, more plug-and-play experience that would attract folks such as the one who recently wrote in a forum, "I'm just a listener, I don't want to hassle with settings". For that person, a $15 per month subscription to a glorified music player with stability issues may seem sensible. Is that person Dutch & Dutch's target customer? Meanwhile, savvier folks out there might feel alarmed at being pushed into a relationship with a product they may or may not want, whose developer they may or may not trust. Alternatives are always good.
Secondly, if Roon is being bundled with 8c and if it is the obligatory path to unlocking 8c's full potential (I'm still not clear on that last one), then a lifetime Roon license should be included with each 8c purchase. Honestly, Roon should be so lucky to have their product showcased on one of today's best speaker systems to provide a free user license to each 8c user, especially when their net cost for doing so is zero. That is a deal Dutch & Dutch should have gotten from Roon on behalf of its customers.
The 8c Studio version that I auditioned is free of Roon / Spotify bloatware and, in fact, it apparently can't stream anything at all. It also comes only in matte black spray-painted MDF, suggesting that musicians and audio professionals lack the taste to appreciate fine finished wood speaker cabinets? Another seemingly odd choice.
Still, there is no getting around the fact that 8c effortlessly blows most audiophile high-end gear out of the water; so, am I overthinking all this? Should I just go for it, enjoy my own 8cs and hope for the best? And to complicate matters, what about all the classic old-school gear out there that I'd still love to own? I honestly feel a little torn right now.
Anyway, thank you for reading! Apologies for the lengthiness. Your feedback is appreciated,
I auditioned a pair of 8c Studios, in a studio where they were set up nearfield. I was surprised at how well they worked at such short distance, even if personally I would prefer them at 10-12 ft pumping out higher SPLs. In any event, let me get this out of the way: They sounded amazing. They are definitely one of the best speakers I have ever listened to.
I did some research prior to the audition, forming the impression that Dutch & Dutch intends the 8c to be an all-you-need system that, ideally at least, would only require AC and RJ-45 cables to work, and, perhaps more importantly, would effortlessly erase most rooms' quirks and imperfections. No more racks laden with components, boxes, interconnects, speaker cables, audiophile accoutrements, room treatments and such.
I liked that. The promise of just two handsome boxes gracing a listening room, effortlessly sweeping away said room's acoustical defects, is extremely attractive.
The 8cs' room correction software clearly meets its goal. It tames rooms so awkward no one would have ever considered them fit for critical listening.
That's all good! Now to the puzzling stuff and various head-scratchers.
Check out the 8c's digital inputs. No USB or I²S, just a single AES port. Here in this very informative and quite exhaustive review / interview, Dutch & Dutch's founder Martijn Mensik asserts those extra ports are not needed because
Fair enough. I assume Martijn spoke somewhat metaphorically since music over IP is, per se, not a thing. Did he mean Audio over IP? Is 8c compatible with AVB or Dante? I saw no evidence of that on D&D's website (nor of much of anything really, other than light marketing banter and pretty pictures). In any event, these are networking protocols and 8c still needs to connect to... something.
Indeed, the no-more-boxes promise is only possible if all processing / streaming takes place internally on the 8c, controlled by a tablet or device running some kind of UI front end.
Is that the way Roon integration works? I have no use for Roon so I am not very familiar with it, but I thought it required a computer to run the Roon "core". Does the Roon core run on 8c? Or does it still require a separate Windows or MacOS machine?
More importantly, are there currently ways to stream music over IP outside of Roon or Spotify?
If not, the dearth of input ports becomes problematic, because it forces users to resort to the very components and boxes 8c was supposed to do away with on the way to a clean, uncluttered future. But instead, you need... a preamp?
More options are better than fewer. Surely USB and I²S are supported in Pascal Audio's modules and the physical ports are quite small, making their exclusion appear to be a somewhat odd choice.
This brings us to a more high-level philosophical issue. When I'm buying 8cs, I'm not really just buying speakers. I'm primarily buying software, because it is software that makes these speakers sound so great. SEAS drivers, Pascal Audio modules, etc. are all fine components used in a number of fine products, but there is no doubt in my mind that a hypothetical pair of passive 8c with old-school passive crossovers would sound far, far worse than the real thing, even with the best electronics in the world behind them.
When you buy software, you also marry its developers, in a manner of speaking. You espouse their vision. Unlike Wilson Audio speakers or whatever, your 8cs will evolve over time. Five years from now, they will no longer be the 8cs you can buy today. You are trusting the developers to evolve the product in a direction that you agree with, and you look forward to your product getting better over time. When this kind of business model works, it's great; but it adds a not insubstantial amount of risk and uncertainty to an otherwise straightforward transaction. Many things can happen; a visionary founder may be replaced by a committee; a private equity firm might cash the founders out then set out to optimize returns; etc. That said, it isn't just new owners who can turn your remotely upgradeable product into something other than the product you loved and went for in the first place.
Why does this matter? Imagine if tomorrow Apple bought Dutch & Dutch. Apple famously hates FLACs. One morning, post-acquisition, you wake up to find out that your 8c no longer plays FLACs. Just saying
Enter Roon and Spotify. Now please, seriously, look at Spotify - 128 to 320kbps, no lossless plan although that's been promised for like seven years - what exactly is Spotify doing here? Who buys one of the best sound transducers in the world to stream eardrum-scraping low-res mp3s?
It's easy to see see how Roon facilitates a simpler, more plug-and-play experience that would attract folks such as the one who recently wrote in a forum, "I'm just a listener, I don't want to hassle with settings". For that person, a $15 per month subscription to a glorified music player with stability issues may seem sensible. Is that person Dutch & Dutch's target customer? Meanwhile, savvier folks out there might feel alarmed at being pushed into a relationship with a product they may or may not want, whose developer they may or may not trust. Alternatives are always good.
Secondly, if Roon is being bundled with 8c and if it is the obligatory path to unlocking 8c's full potential (I'm still not clear on that last one), then a lifetime Roon license should be included with each 8c purchase. Honestly, Roon should be so lucky to have their product showcased on one of today's best speaker systems to provide a free user license to each 8c user, especially when their net cost for doing so is zero. That is a deal Dutch & Dutch should have gotten from Roon on behalf of its customers.
The 8c Studio version that I auditioned is free of Roon / Spotify bloatware and, in fact, it apparently can't stream anything at all. It also comes only in matte black spray-painted MDF, suggesting that musicians and audio professionals lack the taste to appreciate fine finished wood speaker cabinets? Another seemingly odd choice.
Still, there is no getting around the fact that 8c effortlessly blows most audiophile high-end gear out of the water; so, am I overthinking all this? Should I just go for it, enjoy my own 8cs and hope for the best? And to complicate matters, what about all the classic old-school gear out there that I'd still love to own? I honestly feel a little torn right now.
Anyway, thank you for reading! Apologies for the lengthiness. Your feedback is appreciated,
Last edited:
