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I auditioned Dutch & Dutch 8c, and I have more questions now than before

There is a low latency mode and the 8C doesn’t add that much latency even in full fat.
Keith
 
One thing the Kef LS60 and JBL 4329P have that would nice with the 8c, remote control.


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The 8Cs have their Ascend app with volume attenuation on the front page , and with Roon the volume of the speakers is directly linked to the Roon software , pretty straightforward, no knob though!
Keith
 
Unrealistic to expect one device any device ( streamer/loudspeaker) to include every possible playback option.
Much simpler to connect a laptop.
Keith
The one thing I would never allow as part of a high quality music system is a general-purpose computer of any description. They are simply not built for audio and offer little protection from RFI, etc.

Granted most modern electronics include aspects from the computer world, but they will / should be built with solely audio in mind with all that that entails.

Compute are OK as control devices that may host a control app, but the signal should never be let loose within a computer.

Personal opinion borne out by personal experience, but others may reach alternative conclusions.
 
The one thing I would never allow as part of a high quality music system is a general-purpose computer of any description. They are simply not built for audio and offer little protection from RFI, etc.

Granted most modern electronics include aspects from the computer world, but they will / should be built with solely audio in mind with all that that entails.
Exactly what are you talking about?
 
The one thing I would never allow as part of a high quality music system is a general-purpose computer of any description. They are simply not built for audio and offer little protection from RFI, etc.

Granted most modern electronics include aspects from the computer world, but they will / should be built with solely audio in mind with all that that entails.

Compute are OK as control devices that may host a control app, but the signal should never be let loose within a computer.

Personal opinion borne out by personal experience, but others may reach alternative conclusions.

I've been using Mac minis (2011 model and now a 2012 model) as my computer music servers for more than a decade now and have never had any problems. It's always been mini-->USB-->digital preamp, or now currently, mini-->USB to coax converter-->coax to AES cable-->active DSP speakers. No noise, no buffering, no clicks or dropouts, no nothing except music.

I know that it is certainly possible to have a more conventional big-box PC whose internal noise makes its way out to the USB port in the form of sometimes-audible gunk at 8kHz, or that passes on ground-loop noise or similar. But I haven't experienced that with the minis. Also, I use them as dedicated music servers so there's no keyboard, mouse, or monitor connected; I have heard stories of folks who use their main PCs in a desktop-listening setup and activity from the video card and/or mouse-clicking can create audible clicks or activity-correlated changes in the noise floor of the audio system.
 
You read this sort of stuff all the time, when one unsighted/level matched comparison would disavow anyone of this tosh.
I used my Macbook pro as a reference for years had two ‘audio computers’ built ( don’t know why I had the second one built ) not a scrap of difference into the same dac.
@Hear Here people just want to sell you stuff they have no morals, simply charlatans preying on the gullible.
Keith
 
The one thing I would never allow as part of a high quality music system is a general-purpose computer of any description. They are simply not built for audio and offer little protection from RFI, etc.
I wonder if those in recording studios or musicians who use them every day know this...
 
The one thing I would never allow as part of a high quality music system is a general-purpose computer of any description. They are simply not built for audio and offer little protection from RFI, etc.

Granted most modern electronics include aspects from the computer world, but they will / should be built with solely audio in mind with all that that entails.

Compute are OK as control devices that may host a control app, but the signal should never be let loose within a computer.

Personal opinion borne out by personal experience, but others may reach alternative conclusions.
The thing about Fora such as this is the lack of visual clues...
thus my question:
Are you serious?

Peace.
 
would disavow anyone of this tosh.
Side note: I looked up both recently, and the correct verb to use in this context would in fact be "disabuse". Yes, my brain was protesting in anger, too. There's use, there's abuse, and then there's disabuse - what an abomination.

A PC is a good ground loop introduction and detection device, due to its tendency to both be IEC Class I and its chassis ground to be disagreeing to some degree with "clean" mains PE. Anyone introducing one to their previously perfect conventional hi-fi (with exactly one other ground connection, like maybe in the power amp) only to find all hell breaking loose must be thinking that they angered the hi-fi gods.

Of course we know that it's merely the inability of unbalanced connections to be dealing with any and all common-mode voltages (and the occasional internal grounding issue) that has been uncovered under these circumstances, and in the age of shielded network cables and satellite dishes the PC is not the only potential offender. Go balanced and steer clear of the Pin 1 Problem (or use some means of galvanic isolation), and peace shall be restored.
 
Didn’t the studio where you auditioned the speakers have any room treatment?
Surprisingly little actually, especially considering the shape and features of the room. The owner shared that he actually removed most room treatments when he installed the 8c because they were no longer needed.

For most people, under blind conditions and with level matched: AAC, Ogg-Vorbis (used by Spotify) , mp3 at, and above 256 kb/s, are undistinguishable from lossless, for 99.9999999999% (made up number :D) of the human population... You could be part of the 0.0000000001%, that can hear differences.
I haven't done that test yet, but I've done this one a bunch of times (I think the tiers it uses are 128, 320 and 16/44.1). The difference between 128 and lossless is pretty evident imo, even on a moderately resolving system (my B&W headphones plugged into a laptop). There was, however, no audible difference over the laptop speakers, as expected.

I would stream 128kbps via bluetooth to a tailgate party speaker, but I think 320kbps is the bare minimum on a decently resolving system, when lossless isn't available.

The one thing I would never allow as part of a high quality music system is a general-purpose computer of any description. They are simply not built for audio
I feel like there is a lot of miscommunication and misunderstanding around this. Some folks read "PC" and picture a 30-year old Pentium tower with loud fans and a noisy switching mode PS. Personally I have no qualms with a modern fanless ITX-based PC streaming bit-perfect to USB. Add a linear PS and you're golden IMO, especially if the PC is further isolated by a DDC.

Look inside some audiophile-grade dedicated streamers and you might spot an ITX board in there doing the heavy lifting :)
 
Hi all, first post here.

I auditioned a pair of 8c Studios, in a studio where they were set up nearfield. I was surprised at how well they worked at such short distance, even if personally I would prefer them at 10-12 ft pumping out higher SPLs. In any event, let me get this out of the way: They sounded amazing. They are definitely one of the best speakers I have ever listened to.

I’m glad to hear you loved how the 8c sounded in that room! Our primary goal in designing the 8c was to create a speaker that delivers outstanding sound in virtually any living space or studio. I don’t mean to brag, but I think it’s fair to say we’ve done a pretty good job achieving that. Great sound in any room, that's the essence of what Dutch & Dutch represents.

I did some research prior to the audition, forming the impression that Dutch & Dutch intends the 8c to be an all-you-need system that, ideally at least, would only require AC and RJ-45 cables to work, and, perhaps more importantly, would effortlessly erase most rooms' quirks and imperfections. No more racks laden with components, boxes, interconnects, speaker cables, audiophile accoutrements, room treatments and such.

I liked that. The promise of just two handsome boxes gracing a listening room, effortlessly sweeping away said room's acoustical defects, is extremely attractive.

The 8cs' room correction software clearly meets its goal. It tames rooms so awkward no one would have ever considered them fit for critical listening.

That's all good! Now to the puzzling stuff and various head-scratchers.

The 8c was designed primarily to be an outstanding loudspeaker that excels in real-world acoustic environments. From the start, it was compatible with any single analog or digital source, including, of course, a preamp.

Initially, the 8c's software offered only the essential features through web-based control: volume control, input selection, and boundary distance adjustment. That proved to be enough for the early adopters.

However, our vision for the 8c extended beyond delivering exceptional sound in any room. We aimed to create a fully integrated system with built-in streaming capabilities, and more. Internally, we've referred to our vision as "high-end Sonos". Roon was the first protocol we supported, followed by Spotify a year later.

Many Dutch & Dutch users already enjoy the 8c as an all-in-one system, streaming directly from Roon or Spotify without the need for additional hardware. Some users, in addition to streaming, connect their vinyl player or television to the 8c via the XLR input. Others, who prefer to integrate multiple audio sources, use a preamp or a separate streamer alongside the 8c.

When you buy software, you also marry its developers, in a manner of speaking. You espouse their vision. Unlike Wilson Audio speakers or whatever, your 8cs will evolve over time. Five years from now, they will no longer be the 8cs you can buy today. You are trusting the developers to evolve the product in a direction that you agree with, and you look forward to your product getting better over time.
You're highlighting one of the 8c's standout features: it's an audio system that continually evolves through ongoing software development. Even the first 8c units, which initially had a basic feature set, now offer the same advanced capabilities as those purchased today. While some might see this constant evolution as a potential risk, we view it as one of the 8c's greatest strengths, ensuring the system remains cutting-edge and improves over time. Dutch & Dutch now has nearly seven years of proven track record in developing and refining the platform known as Ascend.

Ascend is a combined hardware and software platform. It includes the computer and DSP in the 8c, as well as all the software that runs on it, our servers, and the Ascend app. Devices running Ascend can communicate with each other on the local network, as well as with third-party software, like Room EQ Wizard. Ascend also supports third-party plugins, such as BACCH for Dutch & Dutch.

With many other active streaming speakers, software development essentially stops after the product launch, as developers shift focus to new projects. However, with the 8c, the release was just the beginning. Our development team has continuously worked on the Ascend platform, but the investment wasn’t just for the 8c. It’s also laying the groundwork for future Dutch & Dutch products. We’re currently developing a new range of products, all equipped with the Ascend feature set from the start, offering seamless multi-room streaming and control through the same app. Additionally, we're extending the Ascend platform to other hardware manufacturers, so all Ascend-enabled devices will benefit from the same features and interoperability.

It's still early days, but I'll soon be able to share more details about the broader adoption of the Ascend platform. More info: https://dutchdutch.com/pages/ascend

When this kind of business model works, it's great; but it adds a not insubstantial amount of risk and uncertainty to an otherwise straightforward transaction. Many things can happen; a visionary founder may be replaced by a committee; a private equity firm might cash the founders out then set out to optimize returns; etc. That said, it isn't just new owners who can turn your remotely upgradeable product into something other than the product you loved and went for in the first place.

It's understandable to worry about losing software features in the future. This can happen with some products and companies. However, we’re fully committed to giving you as much control as we can over the firmware on your 8c's. That’s why we developed our Release Management System. Let me explain how it came to be.

In the early days, our software update process wasn’t fully refined, and at one point we released a buggy firmware that altered the 8c's sound. This was frustrating for hi-fi customers, but even worse for studio engineers who depend on the 8c's accuracy. The bug affected how the speakers integrated with room boundaries, causing a bass response that was a few decibels off.

Engineers reached out in frustration, as the change disrupted their work. At the time, there was no way for them to roll back firmware, so restoring the 8c's required direct help from our software team. Of course, we ensured every customer’s 8c was brought back to its proper performance, but the event damaged the trust people had placed in us. It took quite some time to rebuild that trust.

This experience made it clear that we needed to raise our standards. Previously, we only tested firmware internally, but now all software releases go through several stages, such as the "development," "internal acceptance", and "external acceptance" (with help from users in the Dutch & Dutch community), before reaching the "production" group of 8c's.

In the past, we would push important firmware updates to 8c's automatically. Now, updates only install when the user chooses to do so. With each firmware update, the 8c automatically creates a backup of the previous version, allowing users to easily roll back if desired. Users can also back up the complete state of their 8c's at any time, ensuring it can be restored later if needed. While we strongly recommend staying updated, you remain fully in control.

Interesting side note: We learned our lesson during Dutch & Dutch's early startup phase. Recently, a well-known publicly traded company that sells streaming speakers made a similar mistake, forcing a buggy new app and a firmware update onto their users. As we develop our new app, we are committed to not repeating this mistake. If you’re not happy with the first release, you’ll be able to easily roll back to the previous version.

Now please, seriously, look at Spotify - 128 to 320kbps, no lossless plan although that's been promised for like seven years - what exactly is Spotify doing here?
I share your amazement! The announcement of their lossless plan is what initially prompted us to prioritize Spotify over other streaming services.

Still, there is no getting around the fact that 8c effortlessly blows most audiophile high-end gear out of the water; so, am I overthinking all this?

No, you're raising some valid concerns.

Should I just go for it, enjoy my own 8cs and hope for the best?

Of course!
 
As others said, you're not forced to use the streaming part of the speakers. I would not worry too much that a future update will suddenly remove functionality, but if the company stops releasing updates some streaming services might stop working (well) at some point. Of course you should always be able to use the other inputs.

On a related note, IMO D&D made a strategic mistake by fully developing their streaming software in-house, instead of relying on an established systems integrator as essentially every other brand does. This kind of in-house software entails a considerable effort but they ended up with a very limited feature set compared to competitors.. They have recently added Spotify connect but there is no google cast, no airplay, no amazon music, no apple music, no HDMI inputs, no earc, etc. There are many speakers on the market at or below 1/5th of the price of the 8C that do offer there features.

If you buy a 13k speaker which is advertised as replacing a whole system, this is surely a little bit disapointing. And there is a real of question of how well they will keep up with keeping those integrations updated - this is a big effort to be paid for by a single line of speakers.

You raise some valid points.

When comparing the 8c to other DSP-based streaming speakers, one area where it currently falls short is in the support for a wider range of streaming services and protocols. However, many of the most popular ones will be added in the near future. On the flip side, the 8c offers unique features that other speakers don’t, such as the ability to run third-party plugins (like BACCH for Dutch & Dutch) and integration with REW.

The foundation of the platform is now strong and robust, allowing us to add new features relatively easily moving forward.
 
Thanks all for your thoughtful responses. One takeaway is that my original post lacked focus and clarity, which it most certainly did.

My first and foremost question with the 8c is: Given that I will *not* use either Roon or Spotify, can I stream to 8c over RJ-45, and if so how does that work?

I get that you can connect old-school via AES and XLR, except that boxes will be needed and boxes are contrary to the 8c's all-in-one concept / promise.

Using a DAC would be a mistake IMO as it injects an unnecessary D>A>D conversion cycle. The reviewer I linked in my OP tried it though:

I had all intel needed to finally close the chapter and summarize this story, yet the decision was made to test drive my LampizatOr Pacific. This changed a lot. Since my reference source and iFi audio’s Pro iCAN are what they are, it was perfectly reasonable to assume that the 8c fronted by this twosome loaded with valves will net denser, cozier and in general more euphonic and sweeter outcome. Presumably with a drawback or two here and there but overall at least mildly better nonetheless. Martijn informed me that the 8c benefits very little from even posh additions. But surprisingly, his product all alone performed substantially better and the difference was as undeniable as it was shocking. Neither of us saw it coming. My source and preamp on duty trimmed bass reach and extensively desaturated sound to morph it into something less lively, more metallic and audibly worse on most fronts.

So the $27,000 DAC trashed the sound quality.

Probably best to stick with the intended usage model then, aka Music over IP

But can you do that without Spotify or Roon?
 
Thanks all for your thoughtful responses. One takeaway is that my original post lacked focus and clarity, which it most certainly did.

My first and foremost question with the 8c is: Given that I will *not* use either Roon or Spotify, can I stream to 8c over RJ-45, and if so how does that work?

I get that you can connect old-school via AES and XLR, except that boxes will be needed and boxes are contrary to the 8c's all-in-one concept / promise.

Using a DAC would be a mistake IMO as it injects an unnecessary D>A>D conversion cycle. The reviewer I linked in my OP tried it though:



So the $27,000 DAC trashed the sound quality.

Probably best to stick with the intended usage model then, aka Music over IP

But can you do that without Spotify or Roon?
No, currently Roon or Spotify are the only options for direct streaming. Martijn mentioned above that "others are in development" without being specific about which services (one could imagine Tidal, Qobuz etc).

He also pointed out that the 8C was not designed wholly as an "all-in-one" product, that's just one aspect of it. Personally I don't see any issue in plugging them into an external source (digital or analogue). Here, I use the embedded D&D Spotify implementation, and also external sources via analogue (streamers, TV) depending on what I'm doing. The additional D-A-D conversion is mildly annoying to my technical OCD, but I don't believe it's audible.
 
So the $27,000 DAC trashed the sound quality.
Normally I'd suggest that a DAC "trashing the sound quality" is absurd, but between the outrageous pricing and the "tube amp" looks of it, it's possible that uber-expensive DAC does make what comes out of it worse than what went in. However, using an actual good, transparent DAC that isn't audiophile jewelry will be no issue at all. Hell, feed with a WiiM Ultra and you'll be quite good.
Probably best to stick with the intended usage model then, aka Music over IP
I don't think that's the "intended" usage model. It's merely an option.
But can you do that without Spotify or Roon?
Not currently, possibly in the future. For now, like I said, stick something else in front like a Wiim Ultra and enjoy your system if you're able to afford those D&Ds.
 
@Martijn Mensink as a great admirer of the Dutch & Dutch brand, I wonder why D&D doesn’t participate on the Dutch Audio Event? https://dutchaudioevent.nl/

With so much quality on board and room correction this would easily be one of the most impressive setups….!
 
Internally, we've referred to our vision as "high-end Sonos"
Martijn, it's funny you said that because my original post said that Dutch & Dutch seemed to be going after the "wealthier end of the Sonos customer base".

Then I deleted that for fear it might offend Dutch & Dutch folks if any happened to read it hahaha

Seriously, I think the Sonos analogy is spot-on. It crystallizes the unease I feel with some of the product choices D&D's has made, and a D&D website long on aspirational lifestyle but short enough on spec and data that I had to post here in the first place to seek the info that should have been there.

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with multi-room setups, home theater, etc., other than personally I have no interest in it (I can elaborate if interested).

For context, my needs are simple: I want a pair of speakers that sounds fantastic (check), in a 2-channel configuration (check), using a PC or dedicated streamer to stream Qobuz and FLACs from my NAS over RJ-45 so that other inputs are available for my vinyl rig and my CD transport, all the while keeping things Roon-free and Spotify-free.

Thanks again everyone! It feels like I am getting closer to something that resembles clarity here.
 
Short on Data?
Erin’s Audio Corner full Klippel measurement suite of the 8C
There is also a Stereophile review albeit with slightly less sophisticated measurement.

Keith
 
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