How to improve dynamics? Transients and punch.

[tommassing]

I'm trying to figure out ways to improve the dynamics (transients) of my system for two channel listening. I'm running B&W 704 S2 mains off a Parasound A31 through a Yamaha CX-A5200. It seems my system lacks midrange punch like the snap of a snare etc. I kinda feel like it may be a room issue, but I'm trying to figure that out for sure. Any suggestions?

 

[fpitas]

Take measurements. Most likely it is the room, or speaker placement, and moving the speakers, some judicious treatments and/or EQ is the cure.

 

[tommassing]

I'll fire up REW right now and post what I find later this evening.

 

[NTK]

Quoting Dr Toole from his post

How far have ss amps really come in the last twenty years??

About this spl-capacity. I have never wanted to have high spl and I've been happy with 20-50W amps since '70s. Now during last 6 years I have met many new "hifi" friends and visited vice-versa. Almost all of them want to listen so loud that I must walk out of the room! I can't give any quality...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Excerpt:

...​

For me, much of the sensation of "dynamics" is delivered by very low frequencies. So I have a seriously capable multiple subwoofer system. Take that away, or tone it down, and things revert to much "smaller" and "ordinary" right away. Reproduction to 20 Hz or below is impressive even if it is not shaking your body, which is is also capable of doing, most often in movies. Many modern music recordings have "organ pedal" frequencies in them, and it is seductive. One wonders if they were heard in the control rooms.​

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Another factor is directivity and the extent to which the room is energized. Here is where horns often distinguish themselves by putting the listener in a more dominant direct sound field - it is why they are used in professional audio - to address an audience with minimal excitation of the venue. Although at domestic sound levels horns and compression drivers exhibit low distortion, in their professional roles air non-linearity in the throat can generate audible distortion at high sound levels. They found their way into consumer products because of their high efficiency at a time when amplifier power was seriously rationed. That is no longer an issue. I go to live symphonic concerts about a dozen times a year, and it is a very different experience from any stereo rendering of the same music. The real thing is huge, enveloping and crescendos are, to me, "dynamic" even when the sound levels are lower than I can generate at home. The dominant frontal sound of stereo can't do it and turning up the volume doesn't help. A tasteful multichannel upmix is a more satisfying experience, even at moderate sound levels.​

...​

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[tommassing]

Take measurements. Most likely it is the room, or speaker placement, and moving the speakers, some judicious treatments and/or EQ is the cure.

Here is just a quick run of REW before I have to go back to work. That's a decent dip around 90hz, the rest of the curve looks fairly ok to my untrained eyes.

 

[fpitas]

Here is just a quick run of REW before I have to go back to work. That's a decent dip around 90hz, the rest of the curve looks fairly ok to my untrained eyes.

That's not bad. Other than the typical room resonance around 45Hz, I can't see an obvious problem, but I'm sure somebody here will spot something.

 

[Koeitje]

That's not bad. Other than the typical room resonance around 45Hz, I can't see an obvious problem, but I'm sure somebody here will spot something.

Yep it looks fine, just the normal higher-midrange drop for B&W loudspeakers.

 

[ZolaIII]

That's not bad. Other than the typical room resonance around 45Hz, I can't see an obvious problem, but I'm sure somebody here will spot something.

That's the problem. As it bricks "transients" (C50 to ISO 3382-1 early-to-late arriving sound energy). Not an easy thing to fix, especially that low. Needs very efficient bass traps to fix.

Development of a Panel Membrane Resonant Absorber

The bass ratio describes the relationship between the reverberation energy in the low frequency region and that of the middle frequency. An appropriate bass ratio can create a warm sound; however, too much bass can influence speech clarity (C50) and work efficiency and can even cause listeners...

www.mdpi.com

You should try with EQ-ing first and eventually with two sub's canceling each other (180° phase change) in the area.
Still I can't guarantee any of mentioned will work.

 

[Avp1]

I'm trying to figure out ways to improve the dynamics (transients) of my system for two channel listening. I'm running B&W 704 S2 mains off a Parasound A31 through a Yamaha CX-A5200. It seems my system lacks midrange punch like the snap of a snare etc. I kinda feel like it may be a room issue, but I'm trying to figure that out for sure. Any suggestions?

Likely too much reflections from walls. That makes sound diffused rather than sharp. So acoustic treatment is what you need.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

try to measure the Right and Left channel to found if that peak around 45hz is only one channel, then lower it using parametric EQ, REW can generate the filter and then you can use APO EQ for fix the problem

 

[Ciobi69]

If you want dynamics you need a good speaker/amplifier And room reverberation time

 

[puppet]

I'd move the loudspeakers a bit to see if you can reduce that 45hz spike ... also, flatten the 100-300hz range by about 4-5dB .. that should help get back some of the punch found between 60-90hz..

 

[Cote Dazur]

Any suggestions?

Very interesting subject for a thread, thank you for the question.
How far are you sitting from your speakers, equilateral triangle, how loud are you listening?
Since I have changed my sitting position in my room, listening much closer, I found the sound to be much more alive, with very good punch.
Other variable are the recordings, some have punch, some don’t, no matter what.

 

[frascati]

A friend once told me he set up a high quality car stereo unit in his listening room running off a spare 12v battery. He was interested in seeing if he would get anything like the more powerful transients and dynamics that he seemed to get in his car but somehow missed in his home. I suspect he was describing something similar to tommassing here. He claimed it was successful. I didn't follow up. It was a long time back. Maybe he's still listening to it.

But I have always wondered about his premise. Is there anything to this?

 

[MarcT]

I'm trying to figure out ways to improve the dynamics (transients) of my system for two channel listening. I'm running B&W 704 S2 mains off a Parasound A31 through a Yamaha CX-A5200. It seems my system lacks midrange punch like the snap of a snare etc. I kinda feel like it may be a room issue, but I'm trying to figure that out for sure. Any suggestions?

Lol, get some Dynaudio's.

 

[tommassing]

That's the problem. As it bricks "transients" (C50 to ISO 3382-1 early-to-late arriving sound energy). Not an easy thing to fix, especially that low. Needs very efficient bass traps to fix.

Development of a Panel Membrane Resonant Absorber

The bass ratio describes the relationship between the reverberation energy in the low frequency region and that of the middle frequency. An appropriate bass ratio can create a warm sound; however, too much bass can influence speech clarity (C50) and work efficiency and can even cause listeners...

www.mdpi.com

You should try with EQ-ing first and eventually with two sub's canceling each other (180° phase change) in the area.
Still I can't guarantee any of mentioned will work.

I'm not sure I understand what "As it bricks "transients" (C50 to ISO 3382-1 early-to-late arriving sound energy." means. I'm gathering from the rest of your comment that there is muddling of bass notes and the only real fix may be bass traps? I do have some treatments, 4" absorbsion/diffusion from GIK Acoustics. I have no doubt they aren't in the best spots to be super effective, but it's better than nothing.

 

[tommassing]

Likely too much reflections from walls. That makes sound diffused rather than sharp. So acoustic treatment is what you need.

That's kind of what I assumed. I do have some treatments. Maybe I'll giddle with that shit. My room is not ideal. It's large, odd shaped and has one large window and a large patio door. Perhaps acoustic curtains may help? Do you have any experience with curtains?

 

[tommassing]

Lol, get some Dynaudio's.

Lol. I will likely upgrade out of the B&W at some point. I like Dynaudio.

 

[gene_stl]

Tri Amp!

 

[tommassing]

I'd move the loudspeakers a bit to see if you can reduce that 45hz spike ... also, flatten the 100-300hz range by about 4-5dB .. that should help get back some of the punch found between 60-90hz..

Makes sense. I'm new to the world of PEQ's. I recently purchased a Umik and downloaded REW to see if I could sniff out a little bit of the issue I'm having. I've gotten fairly good at the measurements, but I'm not exactly sure how to apply the new PEQ settings to a system not running off a PC. My Yamaha pre/pro does have a PEQ web editor, but I can only adjust certain frequencies, which is better than nothing, but not very good. Is there hardware I would need to import REW results to my system?