How to improve dynamics? Transients and punch.

[tommassing]

Very interesting subject for a thread, thank you for the question.
How far are you sitting from your speakers, equilateral triangle, how loud are you listening?
Since I have changed my sitting position in my room, listening much closer, I found the sound to be much more alive, with very good punch.
Other variable are the recordings, some have punch, some don’t, no matter what.

Um, it's close to an equallateral triangle. It's only off by a few inches. I'm about 9 feet from the speakers. I have tried moving speakers around a bit, but since this is my living room/kitchen/dining room area, I am kind of limited with where I can go. Moving the speakers does not give a very discernable difference in sound, but I haven't tried using a measurement mic as I move things around. That might be a little more revealing.

 

[tommassing]

try to measure the Right and Left channel to found if that peak around 45hz is only one channel, then lower it using parametric EQ, REW can generate the filter and then you can use APO EQ for fix the problem

I have no experience with APO EQ. I'm guessing that is how I apply the REW fix to my system? I'm googling that now...

 

[tommassing]

try to measure the Right and Left channel to found if that peak around 45hz is only one channel, then lower it using parametric EQ, REW can generate the filter and then you can use APO EQ for fix the problem

So how does one use APO EQ if my system is not running through a PC?

 

[alex-z]

The elevated 120-300Hz region is a relatively obvious problem, and due to perceptual masking can detract from detail even in the treble region.

Pulling down that 45Hz peak, and boosting the 20-35Hz + 55-100Hz regions would also be recommended. It is widespread human preference that we enjoy elevated bass response, your bass response is the opposite of that currently.

1500-10000Hz is where things get a bit more difficult. Using EQ to boost those frequencies can worsen sound quality, if the room already suffers from long decay times, or if the speakers have resonances. Best to share the .mdat file, so that we can see important details like the group delay and spectrogram plots.

 

[tommassing]

The elevated 120-300Hz region is a relatively obvious problem, and due to perceptual masking can detract from detail even in the treble region.

Pulling down that 45Hz peak, and boosting the 20-35Hz + 55-100Hz regions would also be recommended. It is widespread human preference that we enjoy elevated bass response, your bass response is the opposite of that currently.

1500-10000Hz is where things get a bit more difficult. Using EQ to boost those frequencies can worsen sound quality, if the room already suffers from long decay times, or if the speakers have resonances. Best to share the .mdat file, so that we can see important details like the group delay and spectrogram plots.

Here is the spectrogram. Not sure what .mdat file is, but I'm looking it up.

 

[tommassing]

The elevated 120-300Hz region is a relatively obvious problem, and due to perceptual masking can detract from detail even in the treble region.

Pulling down that 45Hz peak, and boosting the 20-35Hz + 55-100Hz regions would also be recommended. It is widespread human preference that we enjoy elevated bass response, your bass response is the opposite of that currently.

1500-10000Hz is where things get a bit more difficult. Using EQ to boost those frequencies can worsen sound quality, if the room already suffers from long decay times, or if the speakers have resonances. Best to share the .mdat file, so that we can see important details like the group delay and spectrogram plots.

Here is the decay

 

[alex-z]

Here is the spectrogram. Not sure what .mdat file is, but I'm looking it up.

.mdat file is the saved file from Room EQ Wizard, that contains your measurements.

 

[ZolaIII]

I'm not sure I understand what "As it bricks "transients" (C50 to ISO 3382-1 early-to-late arriving sound energy." means. I'm gathering from the rest of your comment that there is muddling of bass notes and the only real fix may be bass traps? I do have some treatments, 4" absorbsion/diffusion from GIK Acoustics. I have no doubt they aren't in the best spots to be super effective, but it's better than nothing.

Read the paper and read the paper on standard (if you wish).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.odeon.dk/pdf/ISRA2013_Paper_The%2520ISO%25203382%2520parameters_Can%2520we%2520simulate%2520them_Can%2520we%2520measure%2520them_24July2013.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj5r_WbmOn9AhWhi_0HHbdzDlsQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0K3S21Fqx4cUR5Sxy9j7Q2

Those that you have certainly won't do the job.

 

[tommassing]

.mdat file is the saved file from Room EQ Wizard, that contains your measurements.

This site does not allow a .mdat to be uploaded.

 

[AdamG]

This site does not allow a .mdat to be uploaded.

Take a screenshot in this case. Resize it and post that.

 

[tommassing]

Read the paper and read the paper on standard (if you wish).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.odeon.dk/pdf/ISRA2013_Paper_The%2520ISO%25203382%2520parameters_Can%2520we%2520simulate%2520them_Can%2520we%2520measure%2520them_24July2013.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj5r_WbmOn9AhWhi_0HHbdzDlsQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0K3S21Fqx4cUR5Sxy9j7Q2

Those that you have certainly won't do the job.

Take a screenshot in this case. Resize it and post that.

I think this will do?

 

[tommassing]

Read the paper and read the paper on standard (if you wish).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.odeon.dk/pdf/ISRA2013_Paper_The%2520ISO%25203382%2520parameters_Can%2520we%2520simulate%2520them_Can%2520we%2520measure%2520them_24July2013.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj5r_WbmOn9AhWhi_0HHbdzDlsQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0K3S21Fqx4cUR5Sxy9j7Q2

Those that you have certainly won't do the job.

Reading it now...

 

[Cote Dazur]

it's close to an equallateral triangle. It's only off by a few inches. I'm about 9 feet from the speakers

Then you have that covered as well, a few inch won’t matter. 9 feet, if the room is big might make it more tame, but if you do not have too many option to get any closer, as it is a living room, then that is that as well.
From all you have shown, you seem to check all the boxes for having great sound.
Good luck in your quest, I will keep reading the thread curious to see if anything give you what you are looking for.

 

[tommassing]

Then you have that covered as well, a few inch won’t matter. 9 feet, if the room is big might make it more tame, but if you do not have too many option to get any closer, as it is a living room, then that is that as well.
From all you have shown, you seem to check all the boxes for having great sound.
Good luck in your quest, I will keep reading the thread curious to see if anything give you what you are looking for.

Thank you. I most have pretty good dound, but I know something is missing. I believe there are issues with room acoustics, so I've got to figure that stuff out. Unfortunately I don't have much experience with that sort of thing.

 

[Cote Dazur]

but I know something is missing

Of course, I have no way to know, so I believe you. I also know that some time we are looking for something that is not there, as having a reference is not easy. When in doubt, I use an IEM as a reference to decide if it is the recording, both for dynamic and FR, or if is my set up. I have not touch my set up for a long time, as with a well recorded dynamic recording, both my speaker set up and IEM just sing to my ears.

 

[ppataki]

Makes sense. I'm new to the world of PEQ's. I recently purchased a Umik and downloaded REW to see if I could sniff out a little bit of the issue I'm having. I've gotten fairly good at the measurements, but I'm not exactly sure how to apply the new PEQ settings to a system not running off a PC. My Yamaha pre/pro does have a PEQ web editor, but I can only adjust certain frequencies, which is better than nothing, but not very good. Is there hardware I would need to import REW results to my system?

Hardware EQs will just add one more component to your signal chain, potentially further decreasing your SINAD.
I would strongly recommend using a PC as the source with any DAC that you can see in the upper section of the measurement chart on this forum.

Measure Left and Right channels separately then click on the EQ button in REW. Apply Var smoothing with the gear icon. Then set the target to taste (either you boost the low end and cut the high end or you leave the target totally flat and then apply some shelf filters later on). Set the target level to 65dB, Match range 20Hz to 20000Hz, set all boosting to 0, set flatness to 1 and hit Match Response to Target. That will produce the EQ filters needed to match your frequency response to the target you defined.
You can see each filter when you click on the EQ Filters button. You can either apply these values in an EQ (hardware or software) or even much better to export the correction into a wav file and use it in a convolver (that will ensure maximum precision).
This is just to start your journey

 

[audiofooled]

I'm trying to figure out ways to improve the dynamics (transients) of my system for two channel listening. I'm running B&W 704 S2 mains off a Parasound A31 through a Yamaha CX-A5200. It seems my system lacks midrange punch like the snap of a snare etc. I kinda feel like it may be a room issue, but I'm trying to figure that out for sure. Any suggestions?

How far apart are the speakers? Toe in? PEQ can get you better overall sound but I doubt it's going to help with transients in your situation. It's the physical limitations of 5 inch drivers that are the key. To see what I mean, move the speakers closer together and decrease your listening distance by half. This way you may get midbass transients but you will more than likely loose bass extension. If you want both, you need a good and properly integrated sub or two. The larger the room, the more listening distance, the larger drivers you need.

 

[mcdn]

@tommassing as someone already said, it doesn’t seem that complicated. You need to elevate the bass below 100Hz by at least 6dB, maybe even 10dB. (Maybe with a notch for that peak around 47Hz)

You can safely ignore anyone who says using an external box like a MiniDSP to do this will impact sound quality. But if you listen at high volumes you may need a subwoofer.

 

[MarcT]

The OP's original stated concern was about a "lack of dynamics like the snap of a snare, etc.". I still say he may mainly just need different speakers in order to get that attack and impact he wants on such instruments. The amp seems to have plenty of power. I recently compared my Dynaudio Excite X-44's to my Sonus Faber Lumina V's in my family room system. Both sound good, but with the Dyns, sounds like percussion instruments and guitar riffs are much more "forward" and "energetic" sounding in my room. They made the Lumina's sound sort of lifeless, in comparison. I'm not saying the X-44 are better or more accurate. And for extended listening, I prefer the Lumina V's.

This comparison was with just connecting the speakers and listening to them through the same amp and not EQ-ing anything, which could of course be done but I just think Dynaudio makes these X-44, and perhaps their speakers overall, to highlight such instruments. Which might make it easier for the OP to use EQ and get the overall sound more to his liking. I have no affiliation with Dynaudio or any other speaker manufacturer, btw.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

A short text from my own web page, and link to more discourse on the topic dynamics and differences between speakers.

This is a property mostly attributed to the speaker itself, not som much room. And it applies to the whole audible frequency range, not just bass, which seems to be a common misconception.

Some speakers just sound dull, and no eq or room acoustics can fix that.

---------------
Dynamic Contrast

There was an attempt at describing how the acoustic port radiation control affects perceived sound:

https://www.kvalsvoll.com/blog/kval...setter-ny-standard-for-lyd/?part=2#postid-285

We can call this Dynamic Contrast - the ability to present signals with different transient properties so they retain their individual sound, like real instruments, rather than sounding flat and similar. This is the property all small hifi-speakers lack, and the reason why so many enthusiasts end up with large horn systems.

So it was never about removing reflections from the room just to achieve a smoother frequency response.

Try to play Flashbulb, Autumn Insomnia Session, from the album Kirlian Selections. On a good system, this will be literally explosive, and this explosiveness is present even at lower volume.