How to improve dynamics? Transients and punch.

[audiofooled]

Yes, they are. Once I started reading the review it became clear it wasn't a review for my speakers. I've still never really found any comprehensive review of my speakers anywhere.

I bought these speakers after listening to them at the Listen Up showroom in Boulder CO. I liked their smaller footprint and respectable sound. Once I brought them home, they just didn't sound the same in my room, which I sort of expected, but its a significant difference.

I think @ZolaIII and @MAB give you a very good advice on what you should try in order to get best possible in room response. There are also measurements in the link provided by @RobL where we can see that 50 Hz or so is about the port tuning and below that the response drops, sadly we don't see distortion measurements under 50 Hz. IMO this is too soon when it comes to transients. What you need in room is elevated response well lower than 50 Hz, even 40, but at least that would give you a sense of transient attack and there is a lot of content in music around this area. Even in recordings of real instruments like kick drum, bass guitar, double bass, etc.

Have a look at this video (unfortunately in Russian), but there is a short demo starting from 5:21 where it plays a kind of track which is favorable for showrooms and not very demanding on the speakers. Whereas the second track shows some bass at about 5:38 and on:

This second track is about a real situation where, if you are running a full signal to this speaker, it will be in demand for frequencies which are much lower than it's port tuning. As you can see on the video, cone is already a bit out of control, meaning there is not much output but distortion rises dramatically. Transients are all about cone acceleration, power handling and control. If there's insufficient damping, woofers will quickly run out of steam.
My suggestion would be to high pass the mains, fine tune them with setup and EQ, and get a subwoofer to handle the lower frequencies.

 

[ZolaIII]

@audiofooled I will give you a shot and long answer. Quick is use closed enclosure speakers (close port) and subwoofer's. long answer read a research paper and ISO standard paper pinned by me on first and second page.

 

[audiofooled]

@audiofooled I will give you a shot and long answer. Quick is use closed enclosure speakers (close port) and subwoofer's. long answer read a research paper and ISO standard paper pinned by me on first and second page.

Ok so the room sings along with the ports, yes 45 Hz is the problem area that needs to be corrected. I was only referring to the physical limitations of the loudspeakers and not room interaction. Room gain works for the better or for worse.

 

[tommassing]

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this post over the last week, life got busy for a moment.

So, I've done a few things to improve dynamics and transient attack. I've fiddled around with crossovers a little bit. I had my low end crossover set at 60hz before. This allowed my B&Ws to play down to approximately 10hz over their stated frequency response, but allowed my sub to dig out everything below 60hz. I currently have the crossover set to 90hz. At first, music sounded a little thin, but the more I listen, the better I think it sounds. Everything sounds tighter. I fiddled with various crossover points, but 90hz seems to be the best spot. At 100hz, one can hear things start to loosen up a bit.

I've bumped high frequencies from about 3k to 8k by 2db using the Yamaha online PEQ editor. It's a noticeable difference and really adds a fair amount of detail. I'm still trying to figure out the best Q settings for those frequencies that I've elevated, but we seem to be on the right track with boosting those frequencies.

I've moved my speaker closer to the wall (about 14" from the wall) and shifted the toe in so that they are facing just about dead ahead. This takes the edge off the higher frequencies and allows the boost of 3k through 8k without any harshness. Toed in, the boosted high end can be a little bright, but sounds great without the toe in.

I've also started looking into RT60 decay numbers. I'm at about 370ms in the higher frequencies, 450 in the midrange, and about 500 below 60hz. From what I can tell, these are pretty respectable numbers for a two channel system. Maybe not great, but livable. Maybe someone has thoughts on those numbers? I will likely add a full bandwidth bass trap in a corner where I know bass builds up to maybe help quicken the low frequency decay.

As for the 45hz peak and bump arund 100hz-300hz, I will eq those out as soon as I can figure how to do so with the Yamaha PEQ web editor. I've been messing with it, but Q is a bit confusing and I haven't yet arrived at the desired affect. The web editor only allows certain frequencies to be eq'ed, so plugging in the eq fix from REW is a bit more nuanced. I'd happily take any advice one may have on how to figure that stuff out.

Thank you to everyone for your advise, you all have been very helpful.

 

[Bjorn]

I find the time domain behaviour is very important for the lower frequencies (below 250 Hz or) when it comes to the experience of transient response. When frequencie are resonant and ringing that smears things and make it sound less "dynamic".

That being said, the speaker is also very important. Horn loaded drivers have a jump and slam factor that traditonal speakers can't compete with.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this post over the last week, life got busy for a moment.

So, I've done a few things to improve dynamics and transient attack. I've fiddled around with crossovers a little bit. I had my low end crossover set at 60hz before. This allowed my B&Ws to play down to approximately 10hz over their stated frequency response, but allowed my sub to dig out everything below 60hz. I currently have the crossover set to 90hz. At first, music sounded a little thin, but the more I listen, the better I think it sounds. Everything sounds tighter. I fiddled with various crossover points, but 90hz seems to be the best spot. At 100hz, one can hear things start to loosen up a bit.

I've bumped high frequencies from about 3k to 8k by 2db using the Yamaha online PEQ editor. It's a noticeable difference and really adds a fair amount of detail. I'm still trying to figure out the best Q settings for those frequencies that I've elevated, but we seem to be on the right track with boosting those frequencies.

I've moved my speaker closer to the wall (about 14" from the wall) and shifted the toe in so that they are facing just about dead ahead. This takes the edge off the higher frequencies and allows the boost of 3k through 8k without any harshness. Toed in, the boosted high end can be a little bright, but sounds great without the toe in.

I've also started looking into RT60 decay numbers. I'm at about 370ms in the higher frequencies, 450 in the midrange, and about 500 below 60hz. From what I can tell, these are pretty respectable numbers for a two channel system. Maybe not great, but livable. Maybe someone has thoughts on those numbers? I will likely add a full bandwidth bass trap in a corner where I know bass builds up to maybe help quicken the low frequency decay.

As for the 45hz peak and bump arund 100hz-300hz, I will eq those out as soon as I can figure how to do so with the Yamaha PEQ web editor. I've been messing with it, but Q is a bit confusing and I haven't yet arrived at the desired affect. The web editor only allows certain frequencies to be eq'ed, so plugging in the eq fix from REW is a bit more nuanced. I'd happily take any advice one may have on how to figure that stuff out.

Thank you to everyone for your advise, you all have been very helpful.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope you haven't done everything at the same time though?

 

[tommassing]

Thanks for the feedback. I hope you haven't done everything at the same time though?

No, these things were done individually in an objective sort of way, taking measurements at each step. Ive sent off measurements and a scale drawing of my room to GIK acoustics for their assessment on treatments. It seems their only real advise is to treat first reflection points on my ceiling with full spectrum traps and to add a bass trap to my one treatable corner. They don't seem terriblly confident that will do much, so I may save the money and try to do the rest of the fine tuning via PEQ.

 

[fineMen]

The speaker in question has some issues that correlate with the sound impression. To some degree they could be mitigated by a digital equalizer. Or by a studio grade analog one, now availabe for cheap pre-owned for obvious reasons. I'm speaking of 100bucks or so.
If the reverberation times of the room are real, it's better than mine. I don't think room acoustics is the problem here.

On the long run a new set of speakers is a more viable solution.

 

[MarcT]

The speaker in question has some issues that correlate with the sound impression. To some degree they could be mitigated by a digital equalizer. Or by a studio grade analog one, now availabe for cheap pre-owned for obvious reasons. I'm speaking of 100bucks or so.
If the reverberation times of the room are real, it's better than mine. I don't think room acoustics is the problem here.

On the long run a new set of speakers is a more viable solution.

I basically said that early on in the thread, to no avail.

 

[tommassing]

I basically said that early on in the thread, to no avail.

What do you mean to no avail? I've taken everyone's advise very seriously and I very much appreciate the input. The reality is I'm not in the market for new speakers right now. I'm also not going to buy room treatments, but I was interested in what GIK had to say given the measurements. We know for sure now that the room is decent, or good enough at least, so the speakers are the issue. I will try to EQ what I can for now and I'll upgrade the speakers when I can afford it.

 

[boxerfan88]

As for the 45hz peak and bump arund 100hz-300hz, I will eq those out as soon as I can figure how to do so with the Yamaha PEQ web editor. I've been messing with it, but Q is a bit confusing and I haven't yet arrived at the desired affect. The web editor only allows certain frequencies to be eq'ed, so plugging in the eq fix from REW is a bit more nuanced. I'd happily take any advice one may have on how to figure that stuff out.

The following steps are what I used to get REW to figure out the PEQ for my Yamaha AVR. It may help you.

1. Preload the available Yamaha PEQ frequencies into REW EQ page. (first longish red box).
2. Click "Optimize gains and Qs" a few times until REW settles down and doesn't change the values much.
3. Manually adjust the Qs below the longish red box to the nearest one available in the Yamaha PEQ.
4. Click "Optimize gains" a few times until REW settles down and doesn't change the values much.
5. It's done. Manually enter the resulting PEQ into Yamaha (you may have to adjust the gain level to the nearest 0.5dB I think)

Hope the above steps helps you...

 

[RayDunzl]

Nobody has mentioned Impulse or Step response as a contributor to dynamic/transient/punch?

 

[MarcT]

What do you mean to no avail? I've taken everyone's advise very seriously and I very much appreciate the input. The reality is I'm not in the market for new speakers right now. I'm also not going to buy room treatments, but I was interested in what GIK had to say given the measurements. We know for sure now that the room is decent, or good enough at least, so the speakers are the issue. I will try to EQ what I can for now and I'll upgrade the speakers when I can afford it.

Yes, you have. I guess I was thinking about the preponderance of suggestions you received.

I just think different speakers will make much more difference, and more easily, to the sound, including dynamics, you get than all the EQ you can do. I understand room treatments and EQ change the sound you will hear, but I doubt they'll significantly alter the basic dynamic sound of a speaker. And if that sound just doesn't float your boat, at some point, it may be prudent to just move on. One thing you can do in the mean time without really spending much money is to try some alternative speakers from companies like Crutchfield with good return policies in your own room. Yes, it's a hassle if you send them back, but at least you can hear what some different brands sound like in your own room and see if you like it any better.

 

[tommassing]

Nobody has mentioned Impulse or Step response as a contributor to dynamic/transient/punch?

I'm not sure what that is

The following steps are what I used to get REW to figure out the PEQ for my Yamaha AVR. It may help you.

1. Preload the available Yamaha PEQ frequencies into REW EQ page. (first longish red box).
2. Click "Optimize gains and Qs" a few times until REW settles down and doesn't change the values much.
3. Manually adjust the Qs below the longish red box to the nearest one available in the Yamaha PEQ.
4. Click "Optimize gains" a few times until REW settles down and doesn't change the values much.
5. It's done. Manually enter the resulting PEQ into Yamaha (you may have to adjust the gain level to the nearest 0.5dB I think)


View attachment 275325

Hope the above steps helps you...

Sweet! I'm going to try this on Thursday when I've got some free time. Thank you.

 

[tommassing]

The following steps are what I used to get REW to figure out the PEQ for my Yamaha AVR. It may help you.

1. Preload the available Yamaha PEQ frequencies into REW EQ page. (first longish red box).
2. Click "Optimize gains and Qs" a few times until REW settles down and doesn't change the values much.
3. Manually adjust the Qs below the longish red box to the nearest one available in the Yamaha PEQ.
4. Click "Optimize gains" a few times until REW settles down and doesn't change the values much.
5. It's done. Manually enter the resulting PEQ into Yamaha (you may have to adjust the gain level to the nearest 0.5dB I think)


View attachment 275325

Hope the above steps helps you...

Should all values be "PK" in the drop dwn menu?

 

[tommassing]

Yes, you have. I guess I was thinking about the preponderance of suggestions you received.

I just think different speakers will make much more difference, and more easily, to the sound, including dynamics, you get than all the EQ you can do. I understand room treatments and EQ change the sound you will hear, but I doubt they'll significantly alter the basic dynamic sound of a speaker. And if that sound just doesn't float your boat, at some point, it may be prudent to just move on. One thing you can do in the mean time without really spending much money is to try some alternative speakers from companies like Crutchfield with good return policies in your own room. Yes, it's a hassle if you send them back, but at least you can hear what some different brands sound like in your own room and see if you like it any better.

I think that is a great idea. I know I'll upgrade at some point, but it probably won't be until late next year. We did a significant home remodel that tapped us out for a bit. I'm not entirely unhappy with my current setup, frankly, it's the nicest setup I've ever had. I'm just trying to squeeze whatever I can out of these speakers until I can swing new speakers.

Yes, you have. I guess I was thinking about the preponderance of suggestions you received.

I just think different speakers will make much more difference, and more easily, to the sound, including dynamics, you get than all the EQ you can do. I understand room treatments and EQ change the sound you will hear, but I doubt they'll significantly alter the basic dynamic sound of a speaker. And if that sound just doesn't float your boat, at some point, it may be prudent to just move on. One thing you can do in the mean time without really spending much money is to try some alternative speakers from companies like Crutchfield with good return policies in your own room. Yes, it's a hassle if you send them back, but at least you can hear what some different brands sound like in your own room and see if you like it

 

[tommassing]

I find the time domain behaviour is very important for the lower frequencies (below 250 Hz or) when it comes to the experience of transient response. When frequencie are resonant and ringing that smears things and make it sound less "dynamic".

That being said, the speaker is also very important. Horn loaded drivers have a jump and slam factor that traditonal speakers can't compete with.

I agree. I have a pair of Klipsh Forte I in my basement/ping pong system lol. They are crazy dynamic and the soundstage is superb, but they sound a little thin. Do you have any recommendations for horn loaded speakers?

 

[MarcT]

I think that is a great idea. I know I'll upgrade at some point, but it probably won't be until late next year. We did a significant home remodel that tapped us out for a bit. I'm not entirely unhappy with my current setup, frankly, it's the nicest setup I've ever had. I'm just trying to squeeze whatever I can out of these speakers until I can swing new speakers.

Yeah, we updated our kitchen last spring, and it's astonishing how much everything costs.

 

[RayDunzl]

I'm not sure what that is

Let's ask the current incarnation of BonziBuddy...

Me: What are impulse and step response in audio reproduction, and how do they contribute to dynamics and transient response?


ChatGPT: In audio reproduction, the impulse response and step response are important measures of a system's ability to accurately reproduce a signal. The impulse response is the system's response to an impulse input, while the step response is the system's response to a step input.

An impulse input is a short burst of energy that contains all frequencies, and a step input is a sudden change in amplitude from zero to a constant value.
The impulse response is useful for characterizing the system's ability to faithfully reproduce the individual frequencies in a signal, as it shows how the system responds to each frequency in the input signal. In particular, the impulse response reveals information about the system's frequency response, which describes how the system amplifies or attenuates each frequency component in the signal.

The step response, on the other hand, provides information about the system's ability to reproduce transient signals, which are signals that change rapidly over time. The step response shows how quickly the system can respond to sudden changes in the input signal, and how accurately it can reproduce the shape of the transient signal.
Both the impulse and step response are important for achieving good dynamics and transient response in audio reproduction. A system with a fast and accurate step response will be able to faithfully reproduce the sharp attacks and decays of transient signals, such as percussive sounds, resulting in a more dynamic and lively sound. A system with a frequency response that accurately reproduces all frequencies in the input signal will be able to faithfully reproduce the tonal balance of the original recording, resulting in a more accurate and natural sound.

--

From your first measurement post:

Take a look...

---

Oh, I see Step button only occurs on Overlays now, it is part of the Impulse display on the main screen...

---

Examples from my place:

 

[RayDunzl]

Just for the record...

An "ideal" Impulse and Step, having been modified by a DAC and Preamp with their bandwidth or other limitations, would look something like these.

These represent the signal sent to the speakers via transparent electronics, and what you should be trying to emulate at the listening position from audio measurements of the speaker output.

and