How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[MAB]

I have several systems in our home.

The music/theater system in the living room has dual subs, none are directly visible. It sounds great. We don't listen to movies loud, the subs are more for smoothing bass from the floor-standing mains. If I move the mains to a good spot for bass reproduction, they are off kilter for stereo and movies and also look very bad.

The system in my listening room has four subs, even though the mains have extremely powerful bass. The subs can't keep up with the mains' SPL capability on some music (like electronica), but neither can my ears. They offer very little if any additional bass extension. The goal is smooth bass, not necessarily loud. The subs are not very visible and take up very little room in my listening space, much less so than my mains or just about anything else that is set up in there. I have two mains that occasionally swap between.

I have three vintage systems with no subs in a guest room, an office, and the dining room. I could easily integrate them. But I just don't care enough about the bass performance on these systems.

I have a desktop system with dual subs. I use the sub and EQ to deal with the problems of desktop speakers. Also, I find desk vibrations due to desktop monitors very distracting, isolation products provide limited benefit. Using subs has been better than all the desktop isolation products I have tried. And the resulting sound is better with the subs, again smooth bass is the goal.

People think subs are for more bass, I am more of the mind that they are for better bass and allow many more options for mains. The more bass output my mains have, the more I have struggled to get them to work to my satisfaction in rooms without subs.

Also, what's up with the thread title? "How many people don't...?" is a single-sided question.

 

[Old Listener]

I have audio "systems" in three rooms. None include subs.

The music that I listen to has very little content below 50 Hz. I listen to music mostly at 70-75 dB peak and rarely at 80-85 dB. I prefer to listen at a near field distance. The video content that I listen doesn't have big thumps. (If it did have big thumps, I would try to tone them down.)

I addressed low frequency unevenness with DSP filters in my music player s/w. I understand the value of subs but if I can avoid the cost, complexity and placement problems that come with subs, I will.

I made my choices to suit my needs and preferences. Why make things more complex and expensive to please anyone else?

 

[Oddball]

I run two sealed 15" subs with towers in my living room system. Room correction with Audyessy and OCA A1 EVO which sets them to LFE+mains. I've never had such seemless bass response.

It is interesting that OCA A1 EVO has set you to LFE+Mains. As I am running a similar setup from EQ-X, would be interested to know more about the setup (extension of the towers) and crossover that OCA recommends for the subs?

Not sure if the right place to ask - but does OCA also recommend or incorporate LFE distribution nowadays? Not really following as evolving too quickly but always interested in the alternative approaches.

 

[bothu]

No need for subs.
This is my DIY speakers

 

[levimax]

No need for subs.
This is my DIY speakers

View attachment 439324

This is really pretty much a large bookshelf co-located with a subwoofer I actually have something similar.

 

[Jaxjax]

The 8361A’s I had in my listening room were pretty flat down to 26hz or so at the mlp. Never felt I needed a sub(s) with them as I listened only to music and from one spot and the bass was so satisfying as is.
On axis from GLM, verified with REW:
View attachment 438912
View attachment 438913

Do you have a screen shot of that REW 1/12 in PsY you could throw up.? more a curiosity thing for me & is that a L & R averaged.?
Also is the 1st one L & R with Genelec correction in the middle.?

 

[Matt34]

It is interesting that OCA A1 EVO has set you to LFE+Mains. As I am running a similar setup from EQ-X, would be interested to know more about the setup (extension of the towers) and crossover that OCA recommends for the subs?

Not sure if the right place to ask - but does OCA also recommend or incorporate LFE distribution nowadays? Not really following as evolving too quickly but always interested in the alternative approaches.

It has set LFE+mains for multiple towers, Kef Q7 Metas, Dynaudio Emit 30 and JBL Studio 680's. Audyessy would set them all at 40hz more times than not.

With these specific subs (PSA S1512m) it sets the LFE cutoff at 240hz. With my SVS PC-2000 pro and RSL 10e it has set them at 120hz.

When I've A/B'd the LFE+mains vs small with an 80hz XO and have always preferred the full range calibrations. Use preset 1 and preset 2 on my denon x3800h to do that comparison.

I've stuck with the A1 EVO version as I like the simplicity of it and the results are better than what I can do after hours in REW using a minidsp

 

[Jaxjax]

I have several systems in our home.

The music/theater system in the living room has dual subs, none are directly visible. It sounds great. We don't listen to movies loud, the subs are more for smoothing bass from the floor-standing mains. If I move the mains to a good spot for bass reproduction, they are off kilter for stereo and movies and also look very bad.

The system in my listening room has four subs, even though the mains have extremely powerful bass. The subs can't keep up with the mains' SPL capability on some music (like electronica), but neither can my ears. They offer very little if any additional bass extension. The goal is smooth bass, not necessarily loud. The subs are not very visible and take up very little room in my listening space, much less so than my mains or just about anything else that is set up in there. I have two mains that occasionally swap between.

I have three vintage systems with no subs in a guest room, an office, and the dining room. I could easily integrate them. But I just don't care enough about the bass performance on these systems.

I have a desktop system with dual subs. I use the sub and EQ to deal with the problems of desktop speakers. Also, I find desk vibrations due to desktop monitors very distracting, isolation products provide limited benefit. Using subs has been better than all the desktop isolation products I have tried. And the resulting sound is better with the subs, again smooth bass is the goal.

People think subs are for more bass, I am more of the mind that they are for better bass and allow many more options for mains. The more bass output my mains have, the more I have struggled to get them to work to my satisfaction in rooms without subs.

Also, what's up with the thread title? "How many people don't...?" is a single-sided question.

It was to keep it from going into what John referred too, but it's slowly slipping into that as I figured it might. Just wanted to hear from those that that don't & the reason they don't. It's not a sub slam thread.. I'm on the fence about the whole thing & haven't tried multiple subs in 20 years or so. I still might go there as me & audio disappointment get along great !!! if it fails for me that is. I'm EQing pretty heavily down low & would be nice to free that wattage up...

 

[Ciobi69]

I would never achieve this response without the subs , mainly I use them for multichannel / movies with the lfe channel, in stereo I use them if I am listening to bass heavy music but I could use them every time

 

[thewas]

Many people think they don't need subwoofers as their loudspeakers have sufficiently large woofers going deep enough, but the other reasons why subwoofers are an improvement when well integrated is the reduction of SBIR by placing them at positions which are not optimal for the loudspeakers as well reducing seat to seat bass variation.

 

[MAB]

It was to keep it from going into what John referred too, but it's slowly slipping into that as I figured it might. Just wanted to hear from those that that don't & the reason they don't. It's not a sub slam thread.. I'm on the fence about the whole thing & haven't tried multiple subs in 20 years or so. I still might go there as me & audio disappointment get along great !!! if it fails for me that is. I'm EQing pretty heavily down low & would be nice to free that wattage up...

As opposed to many of the responses here, the point of subs for many people is to have good bass, not necessarily more bass. Some posts in your thread confuse powerful bass with good bass performance. Without a sub, the bass performance is mostly limited by the room and the ability to place mains in the room. Bigger mains with more powerful bass doesn't solve this situation in most people's room, makes it worse in many cases. The best place for bass reproduction in a room is rarely the best place for mains.

Subs are hard work to integrate, take some technical effort and knowledge, likely need a mic, and some time. I see this as being a big reason for some people to avoid subs.

Turning this on it's head, I wonder how many events, theaters, festivals, and venues don't run a sub of any kind, and if so what the reasons are.

 

[Jaxjax]

Turning this on it's head, I wonder how many events, theaters, festivals, and venues don't run a sub of any kind, and if so what the reasons are.

I suspect none..
I been watching a few pro's do sub set up lately on YT & it's a seriously complicated thing from what I'm seeing. They were using mics I never seen & complex RTA. doing Cordioid & normal but expaining the complications of both , even in BIG venue's. It was so far over my head I needed to rewatch then still lost........lol

 

[terryforsythe]

I have a sub in one system but not another.

My KEF LS60 speakers don't need a subwoofer in the room in which I use them at the SPL at which I listen to music.

 

[MAB]

I suspect none..
I been watching a few pro's do sub set up lately on YT & it's a seriously complicated thing from what I'm seeing. They were using mics I never seen & complex RTA. doing Cordioid & normal but expaining the complications of both , even in BIG venue's. It was so far over my head I needed to rewatch then still lost........lol

Speakers and room acoustics are the hardest part to get right. Bass is such an important part of the experience. I see people spending quite a bit of time on parts of their system that won't generate much improvement, if any at all (DACs for instance). I prefer experimenting with subs, rather than roll opamps for example. Dealing with the complications seems better than ignoring them.

It does take some work. Unfortunately many of the threads on the topic run off the rails into ideology and anecdote rather than acoustics, and end up as a for vs. against referendum.

 

[dlaloum]

Although I currently have a sub in my 5.1.4 setup - I don't find that it adds much, as I run 4 full range speakers for front L/R as well as Surround L/R.

However, I expect that I will get greater benefit from both subs and mains once Dirac ART becomes available (outside of the current stormaudio release)...

I could very happily do completely without any sub, both for music and movies/TV.

However I have 2 subs ( a spare in storage at the moment) - and I expect once ART is out later this year (and I update my AVR/AVP) - I will then be able to fully leverage a pair of subs in addition to my mains all around.

Both my subs and mains are (according to spec) capable of 24Hz (-3db) - the front speakers having a gentle slope tail down due to being a sealed suspension setup, whereas the ported surround speakers have quite a steep drop-off... both subs are sealed designs, so they too have a gentle drop off slope with substantial audible performance below 20Hz (albeit at limited SPL's).

As I have said before elsewhere, I believe a paradigm shift is coming with the mainstream release of Dirac ART....

 

[theREALdotnet]

People think subs are for more bass, I am more of the mind that they are for better bass and allow many more options for mains. The more bass output my mains have, the more I have struggled to get them to work to my satisfaction in rooms without subs.

QFT!

 

[win]

Counted about a dozen relies expressing that they don't need subs because their mains are big enough and just feel like you might be missing the point. It's really not about SPL, and not about low extension. It's about having several bass sources (your mains count as 2) to smooth out the in-room dips and peaks that invariably happen in any indoor space between say 60 and 100hz, give or take.

Having more sources gives you more levers to use in order to flatten that curve out where you'd otherwise be stuck with crazy nulls.

 

[terryforsythe]

It's about having several bass sources (your mains count as 2) to smooth out the in-room dips and peaks that invariably happen in any indoor space between say 60 and 100hz, give or take.

Having more sources gives you more levers to use in order to flatten that curve out where you'd otherwise be stuck with crazy nulls.

I agree. But, having multiple subs is not practical for all people in all rooms.

In my family room I literally have nowhere to put a second sub without ruining the aesthetics of the room (i.e., if I still want to stay married ). Nonetheless, I am able to tune for a flat response down to 20Hz at my listening position with a single subwoofer using DSP. I set the gain of the subwoofer so that the dip of the worst room mode is just above my target curve, and then run Dirac Live or manually EQ it with peaking filters having negative gain. Now, in a large room a small subwoofer won't cut it, but my Velodyne HGS-18 isn't even breaking a sweat, even at SPLs higher than I ever would listen to music.

In my Office I don't have a subwoofer, but again I am able to tune my little KEF LS60 speakers flat to 20Hz at my listening position. THD is much higher below 35Hz than with my big Velodyne, but it still meets the CEA-2010 subwoofer specification at the SPL to which I listen. If I ever want to listen to it louder (highly doubtful), I can just reduce the gain of my peaking filter I have set at 26.5Hz.

 

[MaxBuck]

I would guess that most reasons fall under practical concerns and constraints:

Spouse ... considerations

Go no further.

 

[beeface]

I don't run any subs because I live in a tiny apartment